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USG
28-07-2009, 10:50 AM
I have noticed that a few of you have discussed the Level 5 system, how it is achieved and the courses that we run.

USG have been promoting a level 5 finish in the UK over the past two years to all architects, main contractors, drylining contractors etc .. who we come in contact with, and have supplied in excess of 500,000m2 of material in this timescale.

The process of achieving a level 5 finish is quite simple, and by embrassing it, it will bring several benefits to you and your clients. Please visit our web-site which will explain the process in more detail - www.level-5.co.uk (http://www.level-5.co.uk)

Without going into to much detail the training is FREE providing that you have a project to start, and we will work with you to secure your first project then look to train you around the timescales involved.

The duration of the course is 3 days for a "time-served" taper and really concentrates on understanding the spray machine (Graco Mark V) and the smoothing off techniques.

If anyone wants further information please let me know and I can arrange for brochures etc to be posted out, or even meet up for a chat.

admin
28-07-2009, 03:17 PM
Do you think, perhaps too many builders compete on price alone to make this a viable selling point at the moment Michael?

USG
28-07-2009, 03:42 PM
We find that providing that the system costs are explained thoroughly then we tend to succeed.

The key point to understanding the system is that it leaves a decorated surface which needs limited further decoration.

Dryliners find that their m2 rate should increase which in term has an negative effect on the painters package.

This is the key point to understanding the system thoroughly.

The materials will never be as low as a bag of powder, but overall taking into account the decorators package, the system benefits far outway traditional methods of interior finishing.

amestaper
28-07-2009, 04:09 PM
Dryliners find that their m2 rate should increase which in term has an negative effect on the painters package.

A similar question was asked by the tapeinator in this thread (http://www.tapingandjointing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74) and was unanswered a few months ago. Roughly how much a square metre could you expect to add for labour and materials?

I'm interested, please send me some more info. Newcastles not too far away or do you offer one in Scotland?

belmoreboy
28-07-2009, 05:13 PM
If anyone need the tools for this system - give me a shout not all up on the website but have them available.

also the sprayers, we have customers using both the mark 5 and airlessco sl1500 - Cracking deals on the mark 5 available direct through us.

Got some good deals on smaller paint sprayers if any painters fancy putting down the roller for the tip!

ps AmesTaper - do you paint as most ames tapers oop north?

amestaper
28-07-2009, 05:41 PM
ps AmesTaper - do you paint as most ames tapers oop north?

No, I hate the job with a passion and would rather wipe my arse with a broken bottle, but I won't knock it back. I still quote for the work and subbie it to 2 decorators I know. Not providing the whole taping and painting package can cost you work sometimes.

belmoreboy
28-07-2009, 06:00 PM
would rather wipe my arse with a broken bottle

Nice !! :D

USG
28-07-2009, 08:12 PM
Amestaper,

the extra rate you can achieve really depends on the regional rates.

As a guide you should be looking to take on half the decorators rate.

As an example - if you are looking for lets say £5.00 per m2 for taping and the decorator wants £4.00 - you should be looking at @ £6.50m2.

the wall or ceiling should then only need one further coat of emulsion at say £1.00 - £1.50 per m2 therefore offering an overall saving to the client / main contractor of £1.00 per m2.

These rates are purely guidelines, however if you currently take the full taping and decorating package on but sub-out the painting I would ask what is your rate for taping, what do you pay the painter for mis-coat plus 2 emulsion , and ask them to requote you for just 1 coat.

I am more than willing to discuss this further with anyone who is interested so either give me a call direct on the number below or reply to this posting.

amestaper
28-07-2009, 10:33 PM
Nice !! :D

You understand how much I like doing the job then?


As an example - if you are looking for lets say £5.00 per m2 for taping and the decorator wants £4.00 - you should be looking at @ £6.50m2.

the wall or ceiling should then only need one further coat of emulsion at say £1.00 - £1.50 per m2 therefore offering an overall saving to the client / main contractor of £1.00 per m2.


Let me get this right. Instead of a mist coat, and two coats of emulsion. I can tape as usual and spray it to a level 5 and get a comparable or even better finish with a single coat?

USG
29-07-2009, 02:26 PM
Amestaper - basically yes - the finish that you achieve with the system means it only needs one further coat of emulsion, or if your carefull it can be left as a finish - particularly on ceilings.

If you are interested further let me know and we cold have a chat or meet up etc - as you say scotlands not that far from newcastle

amestaper
29-07-2009, 05:30 PM
Without going into to much detail the training is FREE providing that you have a project to start, and we will work with you to secure your first project then look to train you around the timescales involved.
Can you explain, is any training at your place or on site?


If you are interested further let me know and we cold have a chat or meet up etc - as you say scotlands not that far from newcastle
Yes, I think we should.

amestaper
15-08-2009, 12:39 PM
Looking for the Level 6 posts? They've been moved here to their own thread for no reason other than it makes them easier to find.
http://www.tapingandjointing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256

amestaper
25-08-2009, 07:02 PM
This topic is still active you know! Surely theres life in this one yet, or shall I close the thread down now? :p

This definitely is a fascinating system in the evolution of drywall finishing and even though it may make a few painters unhappy I think it is the way forward. Using only 2 boxes rather than 3 and I dont have to sand the taping either? WTF?? This goes against the grain with what I was taught when learning this trade. At first glance the plus points I picked up on were I can do the job quicker, better as it has a tougher finish, I can make more dough, and I dont have to mess around with primer anymore.

Top banana USG, now wheres my commission? ;)

BTW. I enjoyed our meet up at the demo in Peterlee last week and look forward to the next one youre hosting. When will that be if you don't mind me asking?

Techmgr
26-08-2009, 08:17 AM
Keep the thread going, I'm sure there are a million (well a few anyway) questions that need to be asked about this new system and Michael (USG) and I are on hand to answer them for you. Like garlic bread ... it's the future.

Nice logo BTW. :fing02:

phil
26-08-2009, 10:07 AM
i am predominantly a paint sprayer i only really got into the taping out of necessity. My issue was that I was always going into jobs to spray the walls and ceilings to find that the taper had tried to get away with a 2 box finish, it was only after I sprayed the wall that it highlighted the dips in the tapered boards. Then it was a case of arguing about who’s snag it was. It always pissed me off that the painter gets the blame for everyone else’s mistakes or shortcuts. So I learnt how to tape & Joint so that I got the surface 100% right for me to spray on. God knows how many times I have had to put another box on someone else’s work just so I wouldn’t get snagged on my own work.

I would be more interested in the USG system if they were pushing the entire system, for example to tape, prospray, Tuffhide and then Rediwall, cos no disrespect to anyone, but the best profit and the fastest profit is in the top coating, if the rest of the wall is prepared to a good standard and the Tuffhide is tinted to the same colour as the wall is going to be finished, it would be so fast to put the topcoat on. On a good day I could spray between 350 – 500m2 on bare plasterboard, so if I was spraying on top of primer that was tinted to the same colour I could do acres in a day. I presume the Rediwall is 100% compatible with the Tuffhide, so there would be no difference in the colour of the Tuffhide to the colour of the Rediwall. Sometimes different products tint slightly different. A Dulux 10B15 would look slightly different to a Crown 10B15 colour. So therefore it wouldn’t make sense that the Rediwall was the specified finish on the prospray or Tuffhide. Is this the future plan.

phil
26-08-2009, 10:09 AM
sorry i meant, wouldnt it make more sense if the whole system was specified and marketed.

amestaper
26-08-2009, 11:16 AM
Like garlic bread ... it's the future.Like Futurama? Flying cars, teleports, time + space travel and smelly breath? What a thought LOL


Nice logo BTW. :fing02:Thanks Ian! :)

USG
26-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Phil,

USG are committed to promoting the full system, and have completed and are currently involved in numerous projects of various sizes from 1,000m2 up to 48,000m2 for the complete system.

We constantly promote the level 5 finish as a faster more efficient way of finishing drywall, blockwork and concrete that leaves a superior finish to traditional methods.

(If you wish to discuss this further please call me on the details below)

With regards to the inter face of usng Tuffhide and RediWall the two products would not be used together or on top of each other.

They would both be spray applied over the ProSpray base coat.

The main difference is that Tuffhide is promoted as an equivilant to a mis-coat and 1 coat of emulsion, therefore leaving a final coat to be applied by a decorator. We have however completed numerous projects where the White Tuffhide has been accepted and left as a final finish on Plasterboard ceilings.

The RediWall on the other hand is the equivilant to a mis-coat plus 2 coats of emulsion, therefore suitable for leaving as an overall finished surface.

The RediWall product can also be supplied with "Silver technology" which helps prevents the spread of superbugs such as MRSA & E-Coli amongst others.

Again if you wish to discuss these difference further either call me direct or post a further reply.

drywall finisher
08-09-2009, 04:48 AM
Let's stay with the basic's.

Tape, top , skim, prep and sand.
We gotten away from what the trade really is. A skilled craftsmen. We are cutting corners and skipping coats to achieve the best quality finish. We gotten I believe to dependent on mastering the tools instead of mastering the hand tools. An average drywall finisher can do 6000 sq. ft. of board a day...thats how we train our guys hear in Northern California. They push the tools to get level 3 finish and then we train our apprentices to achieve level 5 smooth wall by hand. 6ooo sq. ft. a day can be done. With very minium sanding to no sanding...no photographing - telegraphing...a quality finish.

phil
14-09-2009, 03:16 PM
i dont really believe we are cutting corners, i believe that using systems like the USG, knauf or the Level-6 the aim is achieving a high quality finish a little bit quicker than by traditional methods. from my own point of view i like to offer a result that is better than my competitors, but i also like to make a good healthy profit. so if by using machanical tapers, spray plaster skims, and a single application top-coat i can complete the project in half the time whilst still offering 1st class results, then i am going to do so. you have to stay one step ahead of everyone else, offer something new and original it gets more enquiries and more chances to tender for jobs. thats just my opinion anyway.

herbert
03-10-2009, 05:08 PM
hello level 5 is the finish can be done with many other products like any joint cement by hand and by machine

if you look at alltek, and sto, ect.

and you can spray paint the walls as well

The system how usg sells it can be expensive

theblones
22-02-2010, 12:53 PM
Does tufhide come in different colours ?
no painter has ever followed our work with one coat if its magnolia or any other colour than white and then they will only agree to do the ceilings with one coat. We have been using sprayplast (like tuffhide) They reckon it is very difficult to get perfect coverage with zero flashing in just one coat.

DMS
23-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Level 5 finish, is an actual spec in North America, essentially it is 3 boxes and then coating the whole wall, used to be by hand, but since the mark V came out, there isn't much point in doing it that way. The concept behind it is to create an absolutely perfect flat finish, with no chance of joints telegraphing. What we are doing in the UK is slightly different, as it is more or less looking at a better option to plaster and has a bit more room for slight imperfections. A very good smooth, flat hard finish can be a chieved by
1. paper tape- most effectively applied with a bazooka
2. 1 box (8 or 10)
3. spot your screws -i would reccomend twice with filler the first time to avoid shrinkage
4. first coat internals (bazooka,corner roller, corner finisher)
it may be worth using rigid internal corners or ammoflex which can be run through the taper and holds its shape, to make the internals as clean as possible
5. External corner tape, again Usg, no coat or strait flex recomended, it may be worth second coating them, particularly if they are standing proud
6. knock your snots off & or light sand
7. spray pro spray with mark V 1.5 - 2 mil thickness and lay off with trowel/knife of choice
8. light sand to take off high points
9. spray tough hide
the most cost effective way is to combine the autoamtic taping tools with the Mark V. I have been playing with this system both in the states and since it was introduced in the UK, any questions please feel free to get in touch with me. We also offer combination kits which include the Mark V, bag roller, hopper, NorthStar tools, Miro sanders or any combination of the above. some of which are listed on our website
cheers Dan Mills

D M Solutions
Premium finishing tools

theblones
23-02-2010, 03:41 PM
are you using any setting compounds in that system:confused:

also if you are spraying tuff hide and pro spray over everything can you tell me the following, i would find it very useful
1, Are you finishing flush with the board when you bazooka flats
2 Would mesh be cheaper or quicker
3 could you just spray the 8 or 10 box equivelent and spatula it flat
4 whats the secret for minimum sanding on the pro spray and what do u use to sand hand or machine
5 can you tint the tuff hide
6 what the ruff cost a mtr for this system, the last time i did it we were buying the sprayplast in small blue barrels from wetndry costing about 30p mtr i think and was not doing the pro spray
we used their box filler and box compound aswell.
I will have loads more questions so beware:p

DMS
23-02-2010, 03:55 PM
also if you are spraying tuff hide and pro spray over everything can you tell me the following, i would find it very useful
1, Are you finishing flush with the board when you bazooka flats
no just bed the tapes and let hem dry for an hour or two so they bond to the board, it is a common mistake, because people here are used to doing a mesh tape filler option which you fill the bevel at the same time, you can let the box do that for you
2 Would mesh be cheaper or quicker
i don't think so, becuase you would be running a box over it anyway, so paper tape w/ bazooka would be quicker
3 could you just spray the 8 or 10 box equivelent and spatula it flat
you can but i think it is slower, with the box you can set it to finish it exactly as you want, feathered just right. with the sorayer you will be spraying then messing with it to get the right cover
4 whats the secret for minimum sanding on the pro spray and what do u use to sand hand or machine
good technique! I usually run the machine at around 2700 psi so it is not hitting the wall so hard an make a vertical and then horizontal pass with the gun so it has even coverage over the whole wall, then using a large metal blade, 22-24" lightly lay it off, really just running the blade over the wall to smooth it and take out any incosnsiosttencies in the first coat
5 can you tint the tuff hide
yes, usg can do it for you
6 what the ruff cost a mtr for this system, the last time i did it we were buying the sprayplast in small blue barrels from wetndry costing about 30p mtr i think and was not doing the pro spray
we used their box filler and box compound aswell.
Correct me if i am wrong, but last time i looked into it, it was around £1.40 per sq m, factoring in around 1 liter per meter coverage from pro spray, a bit over 3 for tough hide

theblones
23-02-2010, 05:46 PM
arite very helpful. Thanks very much.

More questions i'm on a roll.

what sort of money do you reckon could or is charged for this system

how much more will usg charge you to tint the tuff hide and how long would it take to order ie if i was a gallon short of magnolia could i get it tinted and supplied next day.

where do you buy these products and are they in stock always

Do you use any setting compounds in your systems, what you descibed would hang soft wouldnt it in this time of year. if you do is that done by hand.

Is the Mark v more powerfull than a sl 1500

do you use the mark v for tuff hide or can you go smaller like say a 495 st max

what tips do you recomend
do you think tuffhide can be rolled

DC@USG
08-03-2010, 01:41 PM
Just a quick point that seem to have been missed out of this conversation..... Approved contractor status!

At USG we hold a list of contractors who have been approved which are passed onto Main Contractors on when projects/specs come to light. We base these lists on areas covered by contractors.

This is also called on by other contractors on the list when working away from home and are looking for local labour.

jake
09-04-2010, 01:41 AM
Level 5 finish, is an actual spec in North America, essentially it is 3 boxes and then coating the whole wall, used to be by hand, but since the mark V came out, there isn't much point in doing it that way. The concept behind it is to create an absolutely perfect flat finish, with no chance of joints telegraphing. What we are doing in the UK is slightly different, as it is more or less looking at a better option to plaster and has a bit more room for slight imperfections. A very good smooth, flat hard finish can be a chieved by
1. paper tape- most effectively applied with a bazooka
2. 1 box (8 or 10)
3. spot your screws -i would reccomend twice with filler the first time to avoid shrinkage
4. first coat internals (bazooka,corner roller, corner finisher)
it may be worth using rigid internal corners or ammoflex which can be run through the taper and holds its shape, to make the internals as clean as possible
5. External corner tape, again Usg, no coat or strait flex recomended, it may be worth second coating them, particularly if they are standing proud
6. knock your snots off & or light sand
7. spray pro spray with mark V 1.5 - 2 mil thickness and lay off with trowel/knife of choice
8. light sand to take off high points
9. spray tough hide
the most cost effective way is to combine the autoamtic taping tools with the Mark V. I have been playing with this system both in the states and since it was introduced in the UK, any questions please feel free to get in touch with me. We also offer combination kits which include the Mark V, bag roller, hopper, NorthStar tools, Miro sanders or any combination of the above. some of which are listed on our website
cheers Dan Mills

D M Solutions
Premium finishing tools

Hi DMS
Our system is almost quite the same, we do use a bazooka and flushers, our 2nd coat is done by hand, and we spray the 3rd coat on with mud for a level 4 finish and if a level 5 is called for then we spray everything, let dry and spray with a primer sand then top coat.

I have attached a link if you want to see how we do it any comments or questions would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=drywall+taping+level5+&search _type= (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=drywall+taping+level5+&search_type=)

theblones
09-04-2010, 05:38 PM
what coat are you spraying there and what material

jake
09-04-2010, 06:30 PM
what coat are you spraying there and what material

Hi Theblones

We spray our 3rd coat and we use straight mud tinted with the Never Miss coloring gel this achieves a level 4 finish, when we need to do a level 5 finish same mixture of mud and just spray the entire surface.

2buck
04-09-2010, 08:37 PM
you are kidding yourself if you think level 5 work wont affect your wages,think the painter is going to stand bye and see his labour reduced by half,Level 4 taping takes talent to achieve.you will be reduced to level 3 work,the painter will start to out bid you on the level 5,any twit can spray/roll mud and take it back off the wall.they(painters) will start saying they do better job of checking,no need for call backs,saves you time,will level 5 walls for less money etc....
only one who will win here is USG pushing their product:nono:

USG
07-09-2010, 11:50 AM
you are kidding yourself if you think level 5 work wont affect your wages,think the painter is going to stand bye and see his labour reduced by half,Level 4 taping takes talent to achieve.you will be reduced to level 3 work,the painter will start to out bid you on the level 5,any twit can spray/roll mud and take it back off the wall.they(painters) will start saying they do better job of checking,no need for call backs,saves you time,will level 5 walls for less money etc....
only one who will win here is USG pushing their product:nono:

In my experience T&Js who do a Level 5 project in the England with USG receive more money per m2 for doing that than they do for a standard taped finish

The person who suffers in England s the painter.

In Scotland where the market is different, the guys doing our system are no worse off

2buck
08-09-2010, 04:10 AM
In my experience T&Js who do a Level 5 project in the England with USG receive more money per m2 for doing that than they do for a standard taped finish

The person who suffers in England s the painter.

In Scotland where the market is different, the guys doing our system are no worse off
my point exactly,business is business,you say the person who suffers is the painter,lost labour is lost wages,lost wages is lost money,money = life/living,push a man enough he will go to war
we had had painters coming in to price war us on spray/knock down ceilings twenty years ago,so we fought back by pricing the prime coat/1st coat to pay them back,they stopped
any level four job should suffice if your a good J&t,and yes it takes talent ,but no matter which trade does it you win ....RIGHT
how long has your product been in north America,what share of the market do you have doing level 5 --2% ...I know there's some call for level 5 work in commercial jobs...but residential ......NUTZ

amestaper
08-09-2010, 10:36 AM
Let me explain the differences, but these are not set in stone, between the Scottish and English sub contract models.

In Scotland, the taping and painting is mostly tendered under the same contract to one company. There can be no arguments over walls and ceiling finishes and I take any problems to the contractor that hung the sheets.

In England (for English and Irish contractors) Ive worked with, the taping is sometimes taken on by the same company that do the stud work and hang the plasterboard / drywall while the painting is done seperately on another contract by another firm. I've seen a lot of bitching on these jobs.

I only take my taping finish up to a level 4 due to not ever being asked to tender for a level 5 contract, the expense of the spray tools needed, and not wanting to take food from the mouths of my good friends, the painters, who send me all their taping work.

And likewise, I make sure they get all the painting work that comes my way.

So... hypothetically speaking, in Scotland anyway, if I was a bigger company than I was at the moment - it would be a viable option for me to accept both the taping to level 5 and the painting under one contract without any eyebrows being raised.

2buck
08-09-2010, 09:42 PM
ok got you ames taper,England and Ireland more like Canada then,In general most guys where I'm from work for a large employer where up to 200 to 300 guys/lads are employed.lets say painters and taper not of the same family.most contractors/home builders hire painters by separate contract,so the painter can say "yeah this tape job is good"