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dnbdan
04-03-2016, 04:07 PM
Afternoon gentleman

a few of you saw my last post on this, just want to give an update of the situation and want to ask a couple of questions. Basically had a informal chat about near future, this was regarding going off on my own with another lad taping as we have just recently finished our 'apprenticeship' I say this loosely as it looks like it's going to be dragged out over the whole 2 years instead of 1.
This isn't confirmed but from the jist of things, in few weeks me and this other lad will be getting a van, fuel card and access to materials to go off and do plots for our company. However they were sort of saying we would be expected to do this on our current rate of 132 a week. The reasoning being is we are still classed as 'apprentices' and our wage will be going up to minimum wage in July.
(It has to go up in July by law anyway) now am I right in saying 'f-off' to this?
Trust us with a van and fuel card and go and do plots on our own but not pay for it.
Ive already decided I'm not going to do this, just so I can go back with a fair arguement can you guys give an idea of what is fair to ask? I know rough prices and various day rates of different subbies. Can you guys give me a figure of what you'd expect to be on if you've just done 10 months and now told your good enough to go on your own? I'm not even prepared to do it for minimum wage to be honest let alone for our current apprentice rate. My employer has said they want o see what we can produce before discussing rates in detail - over maybe a 3 month period!! My thoughts are put us on a reduced price work rate - taking the van and materials that we will be using into account. Can you guys give me an idea to what would be fair in this scenario please? Me and my mate arnt amazingly quick but we can definitely make well over minimum wage if we went subby for someone else on price.
Cheers for your thoughts in advance

thomas.savage
04-03-2016, 04:57 PM
Afternoon gentleman

a few of you saw my last post on this, just want to give an update of the situation and want to ask a couple of questions. Basically had a informal chat about near future, this was regarding going off on my own with another lad taping as we have just recently finished our 'apprenticeship' I say this loosely as it looks like it's going to be dragged out over the whole 2 years instead of 1.
This isn't confirmed but from the jist of things, in few weeks me and this other lad will be getting a van, fuel card and access to materials to go off and do plots for our company. However they were sort of saying we would be expected to do this on our current rate of 132 a week. The reasoning being is we are still classed as 'apprentices' and our wage will be going up to minimum wage in July.
(It has to go up in July by law anyway) now am I right in saying 'f-off' to this?
Trust us with a van and fuel card and go and do plots on our own but not pay for it.
Ive already decided I'm not going to do this, just so I can go back with a fair arguement can you guys give an idea of what is fair to ask? I know rough prices and various day rates of different subbies. Can you guys give me a figure of what you'd expect to be on if you've just done 10 months and now told your good enough to go on your own? I'm not even prepared to do it for minimum wage to be honest let alone for our current apprentice rate. My employer has said they want o see what we can produce before discussing rates in detail - over maybe a 3 month period!! My thoughts are put us on a reduced price work rate - taking the van and materials that we will be using into account. Can you guys give me an idea to what would be fair in this scenario please? Me and my mate arnt amazingly quick but we can definitely make well over minimum wage if we went subby for someone else on price.
Cheers for your thoughts in advance

i heard your company was going in super cheap, this must be the reason they can afford to do this. if you take a persimmon 3 bed, its worth to tape on 2.10 2m around 660 pound. how long would you and your 'mate' take to tape this?

from this we can work out what your worth is, you will have to then half it as your on the books then take another 20% off as your training..

so to be clear if your doing 2-3 a week between you that's 1800 ish minus van materials fuel (500) so 1300 left, half it for being on the books 650 then of 20% for training (liability of work ) 520 but that's for two of you assuming you getting through at least 3 3beds a week rubbed down.

so 260 a week each.. its a hard world!

if you want more you have to take responsibility for your own work and also finding your own work and buying a van and supplying materials and the storage of these materials.

being self employed is very different to being employed let alone being employed and in a training program.

dnbdan
04-03-2016, 05:40 PM
I see where your coming from Tom but only partly. If that is the case I'm best off jacking it all in now and going back to that office job having wasted a year. Else borrow some money to set myself up for subbying and have a go at that.
I started this shit far 2 late in life

thomas.savage
04-03-2016, 06:10 PM
I see where your coming from Tom but only partly. If that is the case I'm best off jacking it all in now and going back to that office job having wasted a year. Else borrow some money to set myself up for subbying and have a go at that.
I started this shit far 2 late in life

whats written is how it is, yes you are right thought site work is crap these days.. the same units i tape for 2.10 a meter (worth 660) i used to do for 1.60-1.80 a meter and they were worth the same lol work that out!!

i used to think doing a three bed and a rub down in a day was a minimum, so i was doing well. you can do ok but you need to stick at it and learn like i told you before! go with guys on a saturday just to learn. this is what it takes. when you can do units (3 beds and small 4 beds) in two days on your own to a good standard (not hard) go out on your own. really you should of bitten my hand off when i told you, you could come and help me out now and then. it was not for my benefit.

your 27? you have 23 years on site if you keep fit (unlike me) so dont get depressed you have time. i did my first 3 bed in a day after 18 months in the job, i was totally retarded when i started so you can do it. 23 years of earning anything up to 1500 a week if you do 3 3 beds on your own in a week. not that bad!!? not the 500-800 a day i used to do on my own but its not half bad is it.

the best job on site is rendering, and putting up timber frames not drylining. it used to be drylining but it ain't no more and further more it ain't going to go back to the good old days, in fact it will slowly get worse and worse. building sites are not the future.

i dont envy you starting so late but i started just before my 18th birthday BUT did not go out on my own till i was 22-23 so your not doing too bad.

if you going to stick at it stop thinking about money and how much your worth now and concentrate on getting better and faster, that's all that matters. if you do this the rest of the shit will take care of its self. really a few quid now is bugger all if you think of the time you have left in the job earning ok money. you really are being far too short sighted and not making the most of this easy and safe environment you have at work right now.

the best advice is go do something else but that's easier said than done but if you can i would do that. if you cant then you have to change your attitude, focus on learning at all costs. getting much better is your way out of your situation. believe me, if you back your self and put the work in you can succeed.. why not hang tough learn learn learn then go off and do a cheeky job for another contractor over a weekend?! if your ok travelling then this can be done and it will get you out there plus top up you wage (a lot!)

think outside the box, back your self, learn, and stop moaning its all in your hands if you want it.

dnbdan
04-03-2016, 07:31 PM
Yea I definitely see it from more your view now. I think I chose taping because I naively thought taping would be one of the quickest trades to learn because of my age. I got a mrs and a house that needs paying for and she's going to want a nipper in the near future, so I gave myself a goal of sorting out a trade when I was made redundant from my old office job. I was originally gonna go painting but I found out about this one and took it not knowing that much about it.
I didn't want to do carpentry, sparky, plumbing etc as they are all 3-4 years and I'm 2 old to go down that long of a route. I agree with what your saying, I have a lot to learn still and need to get to grips with machines and different ways of doing things. I have learnt the hand taping way, which is everything done with your 4 inch knife and hawk and trowel.
I would say i can tape a house to a reasonable standard now but I am slow. Im not looking for big money. I just want enough at the mo to keep my head above water and be able to leave my house at weekends lol. Once I'm getting enough to keep life at bay, I can concentrate on learning more, renting some boxes etc and progress with the trade with the aim of looking to get some proper descent money in a couple of years. I don't expect to be getting a grand a week but if I can move up from what I'm on to 350-400 take home a week I can chill out a bit. If that's an unrealistic figure, then I'm best getting out of it now I think

thomas.savage
04-03-2016, 08:08 PM
you dont need boxes, i have done big 4 beds in a day(8 hours) years ago with the tools you're using. i have done 3 story 5 beds(10 hours) with the same tools but for a tube for internals.. that's not to say boxes are crap but you can do it without. again its focusing on you rather than a tool, when i did my first 3 bed in a day no one showed me as no one was doing it that quick all by hand.. same when i did my first 4 bed in a day, no one showed me how because no one else had ever done it. i work it out, i did it and for crap money. i ended up teaching the guys who i worked for, they all copied me in the end.

so you have a massive advantage all you have to do is look copy and learn, no having to solve problems and blaze a trail.

i think you should get out of it, the only way for you to succeed is by leaving a lot of your 'mentality' behind. if you had it in you, you would be on site at the weekends with me but your not, 1. because you think i am a asshole and 2. because you dont want to be doing the job. you just have not admitted that to yourself yet.

there is no free lunch and no victory in taking short cuts, wanting it all straight away. low pay, learning is a investment in yourself. thats how you SHOULD see it but your comming at it all wrong. i have see many many guys who sound just like you, none of them last.

i know what you feel regarding the mrs and the cost of life but what you're not understanding is the job does not owe you anything. you have had a hard time by the sound of it, getting made redundant sucks ass. i respect you for trying something different and coming on site, it cant of been easy.

look at your options, have a chat with the mrs and understand if you're going to continue doing taping you need to take a year out and learn, that's what it will take. plodding along with your mate won't teach you anything. you will end up mediocre at best. this is the disservice MJS is doing to you NOT YOUR PAY. they do that because they want to keep you ignorant so you dont go off on your own. they want slow low payed guys and too slowly get rid of the sub contractors. this is the way its going... they will put three of you together at some point and have you doing units in a day too.. they will love it because you will do as you're told and go where they tell you, the days of the sub contractor are coming to a end.

just a caveat, i am fat and worn out with the job mentally and physically but i still earnt 300 in 6 hours today... i often dont turn up and never get excited like i used too but that's just too many years doing it on my own.. really you should be able to beat me, in my state!! you should be charged with ambition and knocking on my door. you're not, this speaks volumes.

good luck.

in taunton tomorrow if you want to watch a fat old cnut be half as quick as he used to be but still plenty quick enough. persimmon monkton heathfield, close ish to the site office. turn up if you want and come find me. will be there around 0730 and coating up from 8. come spot some nails if you want to LEARN.

dnbdan
04-03-2016, 08:36 PM
Haha. I don't think your an asshole mate as I don't know. I can see how you would come across as one at times tho. That said you do talk sense and I prefer you to be honest and frank, rather than sugar coat.
I probably do have the wrong mentality for the job mate. But I'm not going to work my tits off for fcuk all. I know you said the money will come in years down the line but as you said, contractors are indeed trying to get rid of the 'subbies'. Persimmons are starting to do that now with trades. And i have sussed out what my employers end game is.
I will wait for everything I've said to be confirmed in black and white before I make my decision.
Cheers for the advice and chat tom.

thomas.savage
04-03-2016, 08:55 PM
no worries, the best thing i could do for you was be honest. it might seem harsh and make me out to be a arsehole but its all true. a lot of guys like to keep everything a secret, not me.. i just tell it as it is. it might not seem it to you but that's more respectful to you than bullshit. times a ticking like you know, me blowing sunshine up your arse wont help you. if your getting out of the job better you know and understand how things are now rather than find out in a year, more time wasted that you cant afford.

the persimmon site i work on got rid of MJS chippies and took the guys on direct i believe. but anyway, good luck. dont feel all hope is lost you can do ok at this but you will need a change of mentality, better keep the mentality you have and find a more civilised way of making a living imo. ( you got options!)

dnbdan
05-03-2016, 10:49 AM
Only just seen you edited your post mate. Let me know when your working a weekend a bit nearer and I'll show my face. Cheers

amestaper
08-03-2016, 12:13 PM
My gut feeling is to always to listen to your gut feeling because whenever i didn't, I've subsequently been burned. Its a school of hard knocks and people will take the piss out of you for financial profit. Tom has given some great advice I cant improve on, so whatever you decide to do, good luck.

I was treated like shit and earned shitpence once upon a time. I solved that by finding my own work and going self employed.

dnbdan
08-03-2016, 03:48 PM
My gut feeling is to always to listen to your gut feeling because whenever i didn't, I've subsequently been burned. Its a school of hard knocks and people will take the piss out of you for financial profit. Tom has given some great advice I cant improve on, so whatever you decide to do, good luck.

I was treated like shit and earned shitpence once upon a time. I solved that by finding my own work and going self employed.

Thanks Ames.
They definitely are looking to take advantage but at least I can see this. I need to explore my options and have a good hard think.

Dillon
13-03-2016, 07:09 PM
132 a week FFS if your any good at all you can earn that in two days doing day work. TBH even if you found a subby to take you on for 50 a day you would be better off. Agency's are paying 13-14 p/h all though there isn't much going on down this neck of the woods but you get the idea.

The only other thing I will say having done it is, while working with a mate is great in many ways, when it comes down to money you just don't make as much.

thomas.savage
13-03-2016, 07:44 PM
132 a week FFS if your any good at all you can earn that in two days doing day work. TBH even if you found a subby to take you on for 50 a day you would be better off. Agency's are paying 13-14 p/h all though there isn't much going on down this neck of the woods but you get the idea.

The only other thing I will say having done it is, while working with a mate is great in many ways, when it comes down to money you just don't make as much.

if your on a split then its a waste of time. i did this a few years back and loved it but a. its stressful keeping busy (5-6 units a week) b. you HAVE to do a unit and a rub down a day c. i always get issues because at some point they get demoralised due to me kicking their arse every day.

real shame as my only problem with the job is getting board and lonely working on my own. i go so much better when fighting alone side a comrade. but even being busy and doing 5 units a week rubbed down i used to do that on my own and even now can earn the same plodding on my own(4-7 hours a day) with no stress as bashing out 5-6 units a week with a mate on a split.

its a hard one.

taper1985
15-03-2016, 03:46 PM
if your on a split then its a waste of time. i did this a few years back and loved it but a. its stressful keeping busy (5-6 units a week) b. you HAVE to do a unit and a rub down a day c. i always get issues because at some point they get demoralised due to me kicking their arse every day.

real shame as my only problem with the job is getting board and lonely working on my own. i go so much better when fighting alone side a comrade. but even being busy and doing 5 units a week rubbed down i used to do that on my own and even now can earn the same plodding on my own(4-7 hours a day) with no stress as bashing out 5-6 units a week with a mate on a split.

its a hard one.


whats your method to do a house in a day I'm average 3 days a house 1/2 day to rub it down.
day 1 fiba tape on and coat it, steel tape on and screws coated
day 2 run internals,10 box and coat steels
day 3. Finish coat everything

cheers

Dillon
15-03-2016, 05:03 PM
whats your method to do a house in a day I'm average 3 days a house 1/2 day to rub it down.
day 1 fiba tape on and coat it, steel tape on and screws coated
day 2 run internals,10 box and coat steels
day 3. Finish coat everything

cheers

Years of experience and Hard graft :D

Ps I take 3 days too :)

thomas.savage
15-03-2016, 05:38 PM
whats your method to do a house in a day I'm average 3 days a house 1/2 day to rub it down.
day 1 fiba tape on and coat it, steel tape on and screws coated
day 2 run internals,10 box and coat steels
day 3. Finish coat everything

cheers

thats nice, if i were you i would day 1.scrim up, stick angle on but wipe clean, coat up all joints with a curved blade and internal (flush in with a 3.5 inch CF)
2. coat up angle, 7 inch box scim joints, top internals with a 3 inch CF
3. top coat joints and windows...
4. rub down (should be dry as internals went in day one)
nails are not worth mentioning as its a ten min job.

i do this...
day 1. stay in bed
day 2. put angle on and coat up+coat up all but joints, coat up nails while first bucket goes off then coat up joints wall and ceilings, internal special way then top coat them before i bugger off ( 4-6 hours depending on house) 3 bed-big 4 bed.
day 3 top everything but the internals that i did the day before (2-4 hours) plus rub down my last house.

so really its a two day thing though i am really shit at the moment, my heads not with it. (if you add up the hours its a one day thing but fuck that)

i dont need to 3 coat angle as its fully filled out after one( i put it on properly) , joints would be better with a tight second coat no doubt but again they are fully filled out after one but for a little movement where the filler bulges out a little down the seam but i scrape that back before i top them.

if you want to spend half a day rubbing down fair enough but how bad did you leave the job? with no edge on your work and well filled out what's to spend half a day doing?? yes you need to sand all of it for a good universal finish but that's not hard.. bit confused by that TBH. i rub by hand it takes me 1.5/3 hours 2 bed-big big 4\5 bed. i never have spent more than 3 hours rubbing down in my life.

when i ran my festool i could blast out a big 4 bed in a hour(maybe less) then snag it with a pad and pole for say 45 min then sweep up 15 min... so two hours for a big house.