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View Full Version : Level 6 finish - yeah there is one



phil
13-08-2009, 04:08 PM
Ah yeah i thought that too, but it makes sense, level 5 is the finish ready for decoration so they are saying that their coating goes one step further and primes, surfaces and topcoats in one go, well this product is used directly onto the board, basically you tape & joint to a three box finish, then you spray apply one coat of the Level-6 coating on and it gives the equivalent of a mist and two top coats in one application, Just used it on a project in a 3000m2 warehouse in liverpool, it was mint. covered completely and left a extremely hard,washable flat matt finish. sprayed the whole job out on my own in 5 days. got it from a site called spray-shop.co.uk

belmoreboy
13-08-2009, 04:59 PM
phil
Elite Level-6 Drywall Finishing Coating From 6.00 per litre
seems way more expensive than the usg pro spray and tuff hyde combo?

I may be reading this wrong but the level 6 is just tuff hyde (thick paint that can fill imperfections?)

so you job in Liverpool cost you 3862.66 (1.29 p/m2 for paint!?) seems expensive.

Can any painters confirm prices they charge for supply and fix 2 coat mist and emulsion?

Cheers

amestaper
13-08-2009, 05:06 PM
Going rate up here is 4 - 4.50 (if yer lucky) per sq m for 1 mist + 2 coats white and/or maggy. labour and materials inc

belmoreboy
13-08-2009, 05:08 PM
makes phills paint rather good then - might have to try it !

phil
14-08-2009, 10:25 AM
yeah my paint costs were 3K ish, however they do discounts on large orders think if you push them you can get it down to 5pl, however mine was tinted, think about it this way. it took me 6 days 1 man to spray it with one man, lets just say i was paying someone 135 a day, it would have cost me 810.00 labour, however if i was pro-spraying, priming and then painting a mist & two i guess i would have needed a sprayer and labourer for 8 days pro-spraying 1880 then 6 days priming with hide product for a sprayer 810.00 and then for my top coats it would have probably taken 10 days for two coats it would have cost me in the region of 1400 so my labour costs shoot up from 810 to 4090.00. i got 7.50pm2 for taping and jointing and topcoating, my jointing costs were 2.00pm labour & materials, my paint & labour costs were 1.56pm so my total costs were 3.56 plus a few little bits like access etc, so just do the maths on that.

phil
14-08-2009, 10:28 AM
oh and by the way its as hard as that diamond matt stuff from dulux whichs costs about the same, but takes a mist plus two coats to cover, this does it in one

Techmgr
21-08-2009, 02:39 PM
Interesting stuff. USG already have a product in the market called RediWall which to all intents and purposes is exactly what this Level 6 product describes itself as.

Not quite sure what is meant by a Level 6 finish however. USG's Level 5 system is named after recognised industry terminology in the U.S.A.

Check out some further information on our website at this address and download the Interior Finishing brochure for more details of RediWall and the applications it can be used in.

http://www.usg.de/index.php?id=1356

phil
21-08-2009, 03:40 PM
that sounds good stuff, any idea how much it is a litre and is it durable. do you know of any contractors that use it now. I think products like level-6 or Rediwall are definately the way forward. If you tape & joint the correct way then it shouldnt need a skim, these products mean fast turnarounds. I have used diamond matt, and yes its hard but its really thin and takes a lot of paint to cover a bare drywall, i dont really rate it. when i used the level-6 i could tell it was quality, i think its swiss. I spoke to the agent and asked him about the name level-6 and he said, that a level 5 finish is the recognised name for a skim finished and primed drywall which is ready to be decorated. well he said that this coating leaves a drywall with a light skim, primed and completely finished surface, so its gone up a level. I have seen the USG tuffhide being used, i thought it was ok, but it cant be left as a finish on walls, i tried to wipe some scuff marks off with a wet cloth and it went all milky and basically disintergrated, maybe ok on ceilings. is the rediwall wipeable and can it be tinted?

TonyM
21-08-2009, 06:01 PM
my jointing costs were 2.00pm labour & materials,

There must be some desperate tapers up your way. I wouldn't get out of bed for that.

JPxTPxMP
22-08-2009, 10:25 PM
There must be some desperate tapers up your way. I wouldn't get out of bed for that.

Arent you lucky you are in a position to be able to do that Tony :glare:

the_tapeinator
23-08-2009, 10:33 AM
There must be some desperate tapers up your way. I wouldn't get out of bed for that.
Dont hold back ,just say what you think :nono:

phil
23-08-2009, 12:56 PM
what do you mean desperate tapers, what planet are you living on, i did the taping myself, i got 4.00 for the taping and it cost me very little however if i had been paying two labourers to help me it would have cost me a total of about 2.00 in labour & materials so i made 6K profit on the taping alone then i got 3.50 pm2 for topcoating 1 x labourer and materials and it cost me 1.56pm2 so i made 1.94 profit, the labour costs include paying myself a daily wage, and i was left with 3.94pm2 profit when i left the job. so if you know of people who can walk away from a job after three weeks of paying themselves 135 a day and also have a profit of 11'820.00 then please share that with me, and you must turn up on site with a bentley instead of a van. if you read the posts you would understand the point i was making. the system i use means you can tape, joint and finish coat for 3.56 to 4.00pm2. thats doing the job yourself or paying 1 guy to work with you. well i know what i mean anyway. leaving you 3.50 to 4.00pm2 profit. thats pretty good i think.

TonyM
23-08-2009, 07:00 PM
Your post stated that your jointing costs were 2 a metre. To me, and I have a pretty good understanding of the English language, that meant you were paying some poor c**t 2 a metre to supply & fix. I don't really give a toss what you are earning, but to come on a forum and boast about how much profit you are currently making is a bit big headed. Are you that character from the Harry Enfield show by any chance, that has "considearbly more money than yow?"
Also, i'm glad you know what you mean because it made very little sense to me.

admin
23-08-2009, 11:34 PM
You both have perfectly valid points, and I would prefer this was sorted out amicably so I don't have to edit any more posts again! :nono:

phil
24-08-2009, 09:52 AM
well, firstly i thought the whole idea of this forum was to inform other people in the trade about ways of making more money and stop the main contractors creaming all our profit, arent we all meant to be helping each other out. you obviously didnt understand my point of view. Which is this. in todays market the main contractors are getting tapers, painters and the like to go in at rock bottom prices, whilst they are probably still charging the same rate. Due to the lack of work out there they are getting tapers to work for buttons. however my point was trying to let other people know that by using methods like the USG system or the Level-6 system they can still make good money even when charging lower prices. i thought the whole idea was passing on useful information to help people find new and innovative systems.

for example when i do my taping i use a tape called wet'n'stick then i apply USG lightweight setting compound with a 45 minute drying time as my first coat. then i spray my next two coats of joint compound on, i either use sto XF spray plaster or i use toupret spray filler i guess you could use the compound S from USG for the same job, on large areas that helps me fly through the job, I use a product called No-Coat for my corners with a hopper. Then i spray the whole job with Level-6 or i guess you could use the rediwall.

This is me sharing a system that i use, i was hoping to see people like you Tony doing the same kind of thing, it aint boasting, its called learning and sharing. I dont rip people off either pal, i have two labourers working with me and i pay them 135.00 a day which is above the going rate in this area of the country for people who stick tape on a wall and use a sander. The whole concept of a forum is to gain knowledge or share information. I had no intention of bragging. if it came across like that then i apologise. i am not like that.

belmoreboy
24-08-2009, 10:40 AM
phill - just wondering where you get your toupret from, is it still teally expensive - like it used to be?

Nice finish from what i remember when testing , oh and what sprayer you using?

TonyM
24-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Sorry for the swearing Admin, it won't happen again.

Phil, we are not dissimilar in the way we work actually. I too use wet'n stick and coat with 45 minute Easifill, and finish with an Apla-tech Canon & corner finisher. I also use No-coat but haven't bought the hopper yet.
I'm not into working for big contractors as to be quite honest, I don't trust any of them. I'm not about to have some BMW driving QS, with nothing else on his mind except seeing where he can shave the sub-contractors prices, and contra-charge for this and that, have control of when and if he authorizes my payments. I've been there and been caught for thousands before in the last recession when companies big and small went bust.
Good luck to you if you can earn well from them, just don't let them know that you are, or the rates will be cut even more.

phil
24-08-2009, 12:38 PM
thats good, at least we know we are all batting for the same side now. I cant stand the QS's on these large contracts, all they are paid to do is snag when its not really a snag, and also they ask you to do extras and then never pay for them, however thats the business area i work in, so i have tried to make it impossible for them to snag it. I think thats where the prospray type system comes into it or the Level-6 finish coat. if you spray a light skim over the whole surface its pretty much impossible for them to snag it, so they are basically getting a plaster skim for the same price as tape & joint. its just as quick if you are good at spraying. or as i said before spray your last box on and just feather it out. you can buy the Toupret from Johnstones or crown but its quite expensive, or you can by the Sto direct from them, its meant to be a skim but its excellent as a last box as its really hard but easy to sand. I am sure that you could also use the USG or Knauf spray skims the same way as a 2nd & last box on the joint. I use a graco mark V machine and a 5.31 tip to spray the skim. believe it or not i use a product called the magic trowel (corny i know) to level off, its the best spatula i have found on the market leaves no lines at all. I get them from the states for about $35 look at http://www.texmaster.com/magictrowel.html

then i use the level-6 to spray the whole area so i can take on most the decorating package aswell. then i basically do my taping / jointing. let them do their second fix, come back to site, fill any imperfections and spray decorate the walls, then they just get a decorator to follow behind me glossing, if you let them get someone else to do the glossing it cuts out all the caulking and sanding of skirtings and door frames. I get quite a bit of my work through large painting contractors so this works quite well.

hope this helps

TonyM
24-08-2009, 02:06 PM
How do you persuade the builders to go for the spray drywall finish? I've looked into it but in my opinion, most builders/developers are set in their ways and wouldn't entertain it.

belmoreboy
24-08-2009, 02:17 PM
Tony

the USG brochure is pretty well put together, worth sending in with any quotes i reckon

If you PM Michael im sure he will sort you out with some

phil
24-08-2009, 03:37 PM
you will find that when contractors or clients see the time saving & speed of spray skimming and spray painting and the competitive price, they will go for it. a lot of people have issues with leaving a spray finish as the end result as they think that they will have a problem touching in or snagging, well the easy solution to that is to spray the wall, then have someone follow behid you with a short nap roller, back rollering the wall, this is so quick and it leaves the slight texture that a roller does thats what i did with the level-6, then you can touch it in without it flashing, a good sprayer and a labourer can quite easily spray finish 500m2 a day and back roll it once they get the hang of it. we tend to do most of our work in the evening after all the other trades are out of the way then you can just spray non-stop. they always tend to look suprised the next day when they see how much has been done.

theblones
22-02-2010, 12:40 PM
Phil
When you set out to do a level 6 finish when do you consider it time to return to site to spray the walls ?

Would the decorator have done any work there at all. i'm thinking he would want to prime his wood work and caulk all the skirts door frames etc and do all this without touching the final decorated surface.
Do you need to mask this wood off
it sound a good way to go and i have done plenty of level 5 but find the work always gets damaged one way or another and to return and mask everything off is not viable. The difference being level 5 can be repaired with little disruption .

DMS
23-02-2010, 02:55 PM
there are a number of primer activator coats on the american market, but definitely no such thing as level 6, sounds like they are working on capitalizing on USG's promotion of the level 5 6.00 p/ liter as opposed to 2, it would have to be pretty damn good

theblones
23-02-2010, 03:08 PM
also you say the level 6 is dry rolled, i can understand that but you could never roll tuff hide assuming it is the same as sprayplast

phil
29-03-2010, 09:09 PM
hi there level-6 is not the same as tuff-hide and they are not playing off the USG name, ok The trade name for a wall that is taped and skimmed and primed, so the name level 6 is due to the fact that it is taped, skimmed primed and topcoated, when you walk away from the application its finished, you can leave it flat sprayed or you can back-roll it to leave a texture for easy touch ups, so basically it does in one application what a spray skim of mud, and a mist coat plus two top coats of emulsion will do, so look at it this way, it may be 6.00 but the speed of the job and the reduced labour means massive savings.

tuff-hide is a primer, surfacer, its ok to leave as a finish on ceilings but is not a finish on walls, although i understand they offer a product called REDIWALL which is the same as level-6, there is another similar product called Walls-in-One, they are tough finish coats that can be washed and contain a light skim.

its up to you really each to their own. however an example for you to ponder, i am spraying a taped dry wall which is 1350m2 starting tomorrow in widnes, i have priced 4.50pm2, they have changed the spec which was initially a mist coat and two top coats of dulux diamond matt, they are letting me use level-6, i will spray it in one coat, two men will complete the works in two days. I use a graco mark v with the hopper just fill it up with the coating and away ya go. so my extra costs are 250 for scissor lift and thats it. if i was using emulsion mist +2 it would take me three times as long to do the job, and a lot more paint. so does it sound betr now

phil
29-03-2010, 09:44 PM
ok, think of it this way, you have a bare plasterboard wall that has been jointed ready to be decorated, you put the first coat of emulsion on it soaks in, looks awful, you put a second coat on still looks patchy, then you need to put a third coat on and yeah it looks good. forget the m2 rates they say on the dulux tins it just work, i spray thousands of metres a year and the metre rates are based on putting the paint on like water its pathetic, you can get about 6m2 per litre per coat. even diamond mat looks grey until its got three coats on. so you can either keep plodding away spending loads of time and money on materials or you can spend a little more on the material but use less and spend a third of the time doing the job. for years i was working in the traditional way but then jumped in with a specialist coating and suddenly started seeing improved results and more profit. Asda for example have this new spec for painting their bulkheads its this really dark maroon colour all the decorators are complaining as they are getting 4pm2 and its taking them four, five or even six coats to get the required finish, really its mental, we were spraying the cladding and the contractor asked us to spray the bulkhead, we got the level-6 madup to the colour gave it two coats in the same night and it was finished. everyone was happy.