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Thread: Paper versus fiba

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    Season Ticket Holder scottishlad2k10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodmanatee View Post
    I don't how long the company I sub for guarantee work for. I agree fiba will crack on timber frame builds. Most doorheads and above windows. I agree with crack filler, in this climate ( not at the moment because it's roasting) paper takes so much longer to dry and slower that fiba to put up. But been doing this a long time and never had any call backs from fiba tape.

    weve always used fibre tape and never had any cracks or callbacks either?

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    The reason's papertape cracks and splits is all down to settlement, not enough filler behind the tape or piss poor sheeting.. i think like every thing else,ames taping has a shelf life it will fail through time, it wont last a lifetime.. every time a place gets decorated it should and will need to be made good!!. fiba tape cracks just the same!!
    Oh and i use fiba tape and dont think paper tape makes a better job put a crown on your tape and no-body should see your paper or fiba tape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_legend View Post
    The reason's papertape cracks and splits is all down to settlement, not enough filler behind the tape or piss poor sheeting.. i think like every thing else,ames taping has a shelf life it will fail through time, it wont last a lifetime.. every time a place gets decorated it should and will need to be made good!!. fiba tape cracks just the same!!
    Oh and i use fiba tape and dont think paper tape makes a better job put a crown on your tape and no-body should see your paper or fiba tape.

    well timber frame kithouses are only guaranteed by their manufacturers for 20 years...... so if guys on here are guaranteeing their taping for 10 years thats half the house life....

    ive never seen paper fibre or paper tapes cracking in newbuild kithouses...... apart from when an old guy taped a newbuild one coat fast set one coat finish & in other places he bedded his tapes with finish 2 coats of finish........ heating came on and bam! all splits and cracks...... retard didnt realise that there is no real strenth to the finish its a finishing coat where as fastset has the strenth......

    and the other time was when a house was sinking because the cowboys who built it made a mess of the foundations.

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    i think the problem lies in the fixing of the boarding if you fix to metal studs with screws then never a problem -wood i have never used but been contracted to replace an uk artisans work before, as he fixed straight to wood studding ceilngs and walls thus when he jointed ,the wood contracted etc and messed with the joints and popped the screw heads

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    Regular Member crack filler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris oz View Post
    i think the problem lies in the fixing of the boarding if you fix to metal studs with screws then never a problem -wood i have never used but been contracted to replace an uk artisans work before, as he fixed straight to wood studding ceilngs and walls thus when he jointed ,the wood contracted etc and messed with the joints and popped the screw heads
    I see a lot of cracking above doors but that is mainly due to crap grade metal that the main contractor supplies, on a few sites they wanted us to paper tape above the doors but really this was just masking the problem of cheap material
    Last edited by crack filler; 24-04-2011 at 06:43 PM. Reason: cant spell

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    on our office fit outs, if the boarders put a rip above the doors to save on waste, instead of boarding straight across the door openings,we will use paper tape on the door heads, as fiba usually cracks, once the doors are hung and in use. fiba quicker, but paper stronger and rarely cracks.

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    Getting the hang of this 2buck's Avatar
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    mesh tape is merely a adhesive tape, while paper tape used in conjunction with a proper mud acts as a bonding agent. big difference between bonding and adhesive, google it.
    mesh tape MUST be reinforced with a form of hotmud, while tape does not.hotmuds are not bonding agents but adhesives.
    hotmuds are a product that control you, not you controlling the product.
    The manufacturers of mesh tape will not back their product no matter what fashion it is installed, hotmuds,mud,etc,,,,, while someone like USG (for example) will back their product as long as proper procedures were followed, and were done by a competent taper.
    fiba fuse is a different product from mesh tape, fiba can be used in a bazooka.

    here's a no-coat mud vs hotmud vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciswhjI6sLk

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    I was forwarded your message to respond to your inquiry. While I canít provide all of the information to answer your questions, I can provide you with most answers. Both paper joint tape and fiberglass tape work well when the correct joint compound is used. As you are aware, there are two types of joint compounds,

    1) ready mixed compounds in pails or boxes, and 2) setting type compounds, also called quick set muds or hot muds, available in a range of setting times. As ready mixed compounds dry, as the water evaporates from the compound, it shrinks. On the other hand, as the setting compounds go through the hardening process, they actually expand slightly, just as water does when it changes from liquid to solid as it freezes.

    If a finisher uses fiberglass tape with a ready mixed compound, the fiberglass tape strands will not be tensioned or stretched as the compound shrinks. If movement occurs in the gypsum board membrane in the future due to expansion/contraction of the panels because of temperature/humidity changes, slamming of doors, etc, the joint can crack because the fiberglass was not tensioned. However, if setting type compounds had been used, the fiberglass tape will have been stretched and tensioned by the expansion and setting action of the compound, which makes the joint quite strong.


    So the answer to your question is that fiberglass tapes do work quite well IF the correct joint compound is used, setting type compound. In a tensile test, paper tape is actually stronger before it breaks, compared to fiberglass tape, which will stretch (but not break). Paper tape works well for joint reinforcement with either ready mixed compound or setting type compound.

    Joint cracking can occur for a multitude of reasons; excessive movement in the gypsum partition, lack of control joints in the gypsum assembly or improperly installed control joints, poor environmental conditions at time of product installation, not enough joint compound applied under the joint tape, joint compound too dry under the joint tape during finishing, etc. It is very difficult to determine the root causes when cracks occur.


    Here in the Midwest, Kansas City area, most commercial drywall contractors use paper tape and ready mix compounds for the taping coat and cracks do not occur often. Do It
    Yourself type customers commonly use fiberglass tapes but donít know about the issue of setting type compounds versus ready mixed compounds and so they purchase the more user friendly ready mix compounds. I get many more calls and complaints about joint cracks from these customer types than I do from commercial contractors.

    Lastly, USG sells both paper tape and fiberglass tape (as well as both ready mixed compounds and setting type compounds) so we promote both for use and donít favor one over the other. Each tape and compound type has advantages and disadvantages.

    Hope that helps explain the issue. Thanks for your interest.

    Regards,

    Jerry Wonderlich
    USG Regional Quality Manager
    Kansas City

    thats my reply from USG about their testing.



    i think i have won this debate that paper tape is weaker,,,, as he says...........

    In a tensile test, paper tape is actually stronger before it breaks, < HOWS IT STRONGER IF IT BREAKS???

    compared to fiberglass tape, which will stretch (but not break). < MUST BE STRONGER IT DOSNT BREAK JUST STRETCHES WOOP! 20 years experiance to 6 and whos right?

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    Regular Member crack filler's Avatar
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    the debate was not about which was stronger it was about which produces the better finish, all he really says that they both work well if properly applied with the right compound, I think what really got peoples backs up a bit was that you shouted at a new member of 28years running his own business that paper tape is crap and he should change his ways or lose money, the post said scrim was banned in france so he has to follow the spec to produce a ten year guarantee, same as you have just said on a differnt thread that you have to use the paints that were specified.
    I really admire the passion you have for the job after 29years I still go into a house that is boarded neatly and cleaned out and looked forward to taping it (very sad) but after all this time I come on here and am willing to listen to other people opinions and sometimes learn something

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottishlad2k10 View Post
    i think i have won this debate that paper tape is weaker,,,, as he says...........

    In a tensile test, paper tape is actually stronger before it breaks, < HOWS IT STRONGER IF IT BREAKS???

    compared to fiberglass tape, which will stretch (but not break). < MUST BE STRONGER IT DOSNT BREAK JUST STRETCHES WOOP! 20 years experiance to 6 and whos right?
    Try to imagine this, a test to determine which joint will stay intact under stress. Let's presume for the sake of further arguement that the jointing compounds themselves will not fail.
    Four pieces of plasterboard are laid on a flat surface, not screwed to anything and two are joined together solely by joint compound and scrim, and the other two are joined using joint compound and paper tape. One half of each test piece is then clamped in a vice and the other half is dangled over the side of a tall building. You have to grab hold of the lower side of one of the test pieces. Which one would you rather hold on to?

    Here's a clue. Think about the surface area of each tape actually in contact with the mud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyM View Post
    Try to imagine this, a test to determine which joint will stay intact under stress. Let's presume for the sake of further arguement that the jointing compounds themselves will not fail.
    Four pieces of plasterboard are laid on a flat surface, not screwed to anything and two are joined together solely by joint compound and scrim, and the other two are joined using joint compound and paper tape. One half of each test piece is then clamped in a vice and the other half is dangled over the side of a tall building. You have to grab hold of the lower side of one of the test pieces. Which one would you rather hold on to?

    Here's a clue. Think about the surface area of each tape actually in contact with the mud.

    thats just crazy........ if theres really that much stress on the plasterboard then there is something far wrong with the joinery not the taping....... like not leaving 10mm spacingfailure 2.jpgs between the floor plate that would cause severe stress to the plasterboard if the sheets screwed and then the timber frame/studding shrinks......


    spacing failure.jpg

    if there was that much stress on the plasterboard it would all pop off doubt there is any tape on the market paper or fibre that could handle that much stress it would give in, in some shape or form

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    i use both methods,but when i use scrim i always first coat with a setting compound.
    i looked at a house i done over ten years ago the other day,not one crack anywhere.and that house was done in scrim.so both methods are as good as each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jase hag View Post
    i use both methods,but when i use scrim i always first coat with a setting compound.
    i looked at a house i done over ten years ago the other day,not one crack anywhere.and that house was done in scrim.so both methods are as good as each other.
    to be honest there are pros and cons for both methods, I do think paper is better though I hope to god that I dont have to go back to taping all the time with it.

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    Joint reinforcement







    In a plasterboard system, suitable joint reinforcement is essential

    to minimise the risk of cracking along the joints, which could then

    appear through the decoration.

    To achieve the objective of a smooth, continuous, crack-free

    surface, tapered edge plasterboard and Gyproc Joint Tape are

    widely regarded as best practice when jointing or plastering.

    The tapered edges provide a recess for the joint treatment,

    allowing a flat, finished surface. At board joints, where cut edges

    or square edge boards occur, the joint treatment is inevitably

    raised above the board surface and is more difficult to conceal.

    In this situation the secondary filling stage is omitted, and joint

    treatment is feathered-out into the field of the board to conceal

    the joint as much as possible.

    Joint treatment has two essential components; the reinforcement

    and the jointing compound. Reinforcement is necessary where

    there is relative movement of adjacent boards. In practice, some

    movement is normal and Gyproc Joint Tape is recommended for

    the best crack resistance. Thistle ProTape FT50 or FT100 are an

    alternative, and can be easy and quick to install on flat joints.

    Thistle ProTape FT50 or FT100, however, are not a direct substitute

    for Gyproc Joint Tape, as tests have shown that Gyproc Joint Tape

    provides superior resistance to cracking.

    http://www.british-gypsum.com/pdf/WB09_Jointing_05.pdf















    www.dryliningfinisher.co.uk

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    Wow some technical points put across on here to what is a very good question and debate. 12 years experience (5 in NZ and 6 in UK). We used scrim when I first started in NZ on the walls & ceiling joints and paper for all internals. Seemed to work ok until call backs to address cracking above doors and on several main joints occurred. Seminars began with key industry people discussing and arguing pros & cons of the various materials. Conclusion was that with NZ's summer heat - the combination of the expansion & contracting of the plaster board, wooden framing there was havoc, resultant in the popping of screws and cracking of joints so began the banning of scrim in favour of paper tape. This seemed to work more effectively with the systems used espec effective over the door heads.
    I use setting compounds with scrim here in UK and still see cracks mainly above the doors espec in communal areas where perhaps the metal framework behind is not supported strongly enough and when paper tape is used it does seem to alleviate this problem. However I once saw a newly taped townhouse which had been closed up for 2 months which revealed cracked SCRIM horizontal stairwell joints and buckled & warped PAPER internals. Site management blamed the taper for inferior workmanship while others and myself blamed the settling in period -contraction/expansion of building materials, foundations and trapped heat not allowing new house to breathe. Neither is perfectly ideal because the whole system is not 100 % perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavewalker View Post
    Site management blamed the taper for inferior workmanship while others and myself blamed the settling in period -contraction/expansion of building materials, foundations and trapped heat not allowing new house to breathe. Neither is perfectly ideal because the whole system is not 100 % perfect.
    typical site manager looking for the easy one to blame, welcome to the site wavewalker assume you like your surfing with a name like that

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    Getting the hang of this Goodmanatee's Avatar
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    Scrim or paper. Neither seem to be perfect. If the frame moves cracks will appear. And we'll get the blame.
    Welcome waverider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavewalker View Post
    Wow some technical points put across on here to what is a very good question and debate. 12 years experience (5 in NZ and 6 in UK).
    Someone's been surfing instead of going to school !!! Nice 1
    Welcome to the forum

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    My bad - espec being an ex teacher lol :-)
    Thanks for the welcome E.K.Taper

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    Quote Originally Posted by crack filler View Post
    typical site manager looking for the easy one to blame, welcome to the site wavewalker assume you like your surfing with a name like that
    Cheers for the welcome Crack Filler and yip def a keen long boarder since a wee nipper in NZ and not getting nearly enough here in ol England

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