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View Full Version : Dry Lining Paint vs Dry Wall Primer



TradeDecoratingSupplies
19-10-2010, 10:14 PM
I used to stock BG Dry Wall Primer until Crown launched their own, now I need to decide if I want to stock BG again or Johnstones Dry Lining Paint.
Neither will be a fast mover for me prob 3-4 a month if that, its an oh bugger I forgot to pick up...oh shes got some kind of item.
Figures are good for PPG, but it could be merchants & independants like moi that have bought it and its sat there not moving.
Someone who shall remain nameless said their primer was just a p*&&^d down paint!!
Can anyone guide me ?

amestaper
19-10-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm in the position of having used both brands last week and will place my money on the Johnstones. Its like glue, needs pissed up with loads of water and was over a tenner a tub cheaper.

Take that BG! :nutkick:

TradeDecoratingSupplies
19-10-2010, 10:42 PM
:D lol yes BG is deare. thanks for that.
& lol at nut kicker :)

amestaper
19-10-2010, 10:52 PM
Attached a poll for you and voted accordingly. ;)

TonyM
19-10-2010, 10:52 PM
I originally used BG green/white tub primer (19 ish a tub 4 yrs ago) until I had a bad batch which left chalky specks on surface. Went over to BG red/white tub sealer (just under 24 recently) which I really like, sends compound off hard and covered quite well, but a twat to get off hands etc. Now using Lafarge Universal primer, really white and covers a treat (see my current job pics) and 18.60 a tub. Leyland paint rep gave me a tub of drywall paint, comes in at over 30 for 10ltrs. Good stuff but too dear.

happytaper
19-10-2010, 10:58 PM
always used the lafarge as its the most used around these parts. Used the johnstones stuff too which seemed good to me. BG products not too popular here in ireland would nt mind trying some variety though..

TradeDecoratingSupplies
20-10-2010, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the poll :D

That sounds pricy to me Tony, Jonno's dont have much consistency with their prices, I called 6 different stores today to price check, on 10l v/matt b/white. they varied from 19-37 for one tub and for 10+ varied from 17-35, luckily for me the store nearer me was the dearest and wouldnt move on price, I dont understand the whole margin greed ethos, my ex employers were the same, hence why i never achieved my personal bonus which was margin based, as soon as the recession hit, i looked after my guys during their lean times doing stuff as cheap as poss to keep them working, its not always about the fast buck, for me its about long term loyalty, I think a lot of companies have forgotten about this.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
20-10-2010, 09:05 PM
always used the lafarge as its the most used around these parts. Used the johnstones stuff too which seemed good to me. BG products not too popular here in ireland would nt mind trying some variety though..


Any reason why their not popular there? Ive not sold lafarge before I might get some tubs in for people to try free and see what they think.

If it came down to it, if a tub was a few quid cheaper/dearer what would matter most quality or the dollar??

JON RAMBO
20-10-2010, 09:18 PM
bg all the way any problems they sort it if you use cheap products then on your own head be it .only takes 1 dodgy tub and your out of pocket.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
20-10-2010, 09:31 PM
do the other companies not resolve any problems should they occur?

amestaper
20-10-2010, 11:09 PM
Saw the BG primer in B&Q this afternoon for about 44 bucks. No wonder the shelf was covered with cobwebs.
The drylining paint sells from an independent supplier for around 25 and I rate the Lafarge gear too, but it just isnt stocked anywhere near me.

E.K Taper
21-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Any reason why their not popular there?

probably only as it has "British" in the name ....

JON RAMBO
21-10-2010, 08:07 PM
do the other companies not resolve any problems should they occur?

no they dont cos they know its shite so theres nothing they can do,

JON RAMBO
21-10-2010, 08:14 PM
Saw the BG primer in B&Q this afternoon for about 44 bucks. No wonder the shelf was covered with cobwebs.
The drylining paint sells from an independent supplier for around 25 and I rate the Lafarge gear too, but it just isnt stocked anywhere near me.

if your in the trade you would buy it from the merchants so what b&q sell it for has no interest to me

TradeDecoratingSupplies
21-10-2010, 08:33 PM
if your in the trade you would buy it from the merchants so what b&q sell it for has no interest to me

i agree, but i am shocked at the price, b&q are BG's biggest customer, thats just their greed.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
21-10-2010, 08:39 PM
no they dont cos they know its shite so theres nothing they can do,


Thats a general sweep, if its a genuine complaint they have to do something, if I ever get any products that my end users not happy with I make sure its put right. eg i had a guy buy 2 tubs of intumescent off me last week, it had gone hard sat on the shelf at the suppliers depot, the job ran a day behind, they had to fire board instead to keep on track, I got him the days labour paid for everyone, the cost of the fire boards paid, loads of free stock for his next job. If someones product doesnt deliver I create merry hell to make sure its put right.

JON RAMBO
22-10-2010, 07:00 PM
i like your attitude i wish there was more people like you:)

TradeDecoratingSupplies
22-10-2010, 07:33 PM
i like your attitude i wish there was more people like you:)

The customer is king at the end of the day :)

Last couple of weeks I've made a rep cancel his days appointments to go out & put a problem right, had to send my driver to Wolverhampton from Burton for something I was going to make a loss on, purchased items from the enemy and let the customer have it for what i paid because a supplier was late delivering, and when i was in the loo today a) deciding if that lip gloss actually suited me b) deciding if I should slip ever so gently into my nervous breakdown or just embrace it head on it call for a mucho thousand order, even tho I was 300 quid dearer, because he knew he would be looked after.

Im known for and always in trouble for turning down sales when I know fairy liquid or bleech etc will fix the problem, why make a quick few pence for the sake of taking money, I'd rather lose a sale and have them come back knowing I've done my job.

I've had wine I'm rambling ;)

E.K Taper
23-10-2010, 02:25 AM
I've had wine too, but I wouldn't mess wi you!

TradeDecoratingSupplies
23-10-2010, 03:40 PM
I've had wine too, but I wouldn't mess wi you!

Hey I'm nice really <<grrrrr>> ;)

JON RAMBO
24-10-2010, 05:03 PM
I've had wine too, but I wouldn't mess wi you!

you should stick to iron bru

TonyM
28-10-2010, 05:48 PM
Been quoted 20.19 + vat for the Leyland stuff today.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
30-10-2010, 11:54 AM
Been quoted 20.19 + vat for the Leyland stuff today.

Thats a good price

happytaper
05-11-2010, 12:31 AM
Dont really know but most of the BG taping related products i have tried have not been great in my opinion.The products dont sell well so they dont get supplied. A hospital job nearby is gypsum spec (unheard of in these parts) and the tapers there are not finding it fun! In terms of price of material i guess you gotta pay for quality but money is not growing on trees these days so its a tough one to call.

jase hag
07-11-2010, 12:59 PM
I have used them all and johnstones dry lining paint comes out on top,good price aswell 20 tub.

TonyM
07-11-2010, 02:10 PM
I have used them all and johnstones dry lining paint comes out on top,good price aswell 20 tub.

Hey Jason. Stuart said you were using the Johnstones stuff now. Have you fixed your back brake light yet?

RobPristine
15-11-2010, 07:01 PM
just reading your posts about primers and drywall paint. the first thing you have to do is check the solid content. the job of a primer surfacer is to prime and provide a uniform surface so that the top coats absorb into the substrate equally. if you look at the johnstones drylining paint you will see in the spec sheet it is only 27% solids, which means that even though it appears thick in the container this is mostly the agent that carries the coating to the surface this will evaporate while drying leaving a thin layer of coating on the surface. Thats why they also say in the spec sheet that you need two coats on previously primed substrate or a 10% thinned coat prior to the two topcoats as a primer on a bare drywall. A decent primer surfacer or topcoat will have between 45 and 60% solids. they may sometimes be more expensive per litre but you will end up using a fraction of materials and also have one less application in labour. its simple. the idea is that you use a high solid primer in the same colour as the finish coat and then you only need a light coat of topcoat in the same colour to finish. if you would like me to recommend a high build primer surfacer then i can do this. but remember check the solid content it will save you a fortune over a years work, and provide you with better results.

JON RAMBO
15-11-2010, 09:53 PM
just reading your posts about primers and drywall paint. the first thing you have to do is check the solid content. the job of a primer surfacer is to prime and provide a uniform surface so that the top coats absorb into the substrate equally. if you look at the johnstones drylining paint you will see in the spec sheet it is only 27% solids, which means that even though it appears thick in the container this is mostly the agent that carries the coating to the surface this will evaporate while drying leaving a thin layer of coating on the surface. Thats why they also say in the spec sheet that you need two coats on previously primed substrate or a 10% thinned coat prior to the two topcoats as a primer on a bare drywall. A decent primer surfacer or topcoat will have between 45 and 60% solids. they may sometimes be more expensive per litre but you will end up using a fraction of materials and also have one less application in labour. its simple. the idea is that you use a high solid primer in the same colour as the finish coat and then you only need a light coat of topcoat in the same colour to finish. if you would like me to recommend a high build primer surfacer then i can do this. but remember check the solid content it will save you a fortune over a years work, and provide you with better results.this is why i only use bg

TradeDecoratingSupplies
15-11-2010, 11:57 PM
yeah im fully aware of VS having a new cladding paint tested at a lab at the mo, claims to do 75m2 per gallon opposed to 45 and 60 general standard for pre treated plastisol.... they all have 40%vs erm no comment.
thats why im asking for user preference. someone inside bg ( a techy and another) said bg is pissed down paint - mist coat covermatt etc nawt for adhesion etc paying for brand, personally i dontt care as long as end user is happy, I'll quite happilt take extra moola of peeps if they want, but if its just pissed down mist coat rebranded this f*cks me orrrf!

RobPristine
16-11-2010, 09:11 AM
i am sure that most of them are pissed down emulsions. Problem is that people buy into the spreading rates. if you pick up a tin of emulsion it will have a theoretical coverage of between 10 & 12m2 per litre the emulsion may be cheap so people think yipee. however the truth is that someone has painted a wall as thin as possible on a non absorbent substrate to get those spreading rates. Also sometimes the coatings look thick as hell when you open the tin so again you think great stuff, however they are like glue, its the binder that makes them appear thick, they still have crap coverage and low solid content.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
18-11-2010, 11:08 PM
Been quoted 20.19 + vat for the Leyland stuff today.
Leyland or Johno's??

TonyM
18-11-2010, 11:20 PM
Leyland or Johno's??

Johnstones I think. Only used it on Monday and didn't look at the tub.

RobPristine
19-11-2010, 12:20 PM
The problem with judging it based on prices is this. lets just say it sounds cheap, therefore you are encouraged to use it. and lets say the manufacturer tells you that it does 10m2 per litre, so you naturally assume its costing you the pittance of 10 pence pm2 in material costs. however its really costing you more than that in the long run. firstly to get that sort of coverage you are putting it on like water, so the results are bad, you may end up having to put another coat over the top so its costing you in time and labour and materials. I would always look at putting a really good high solid coating on, that can cover in one coat, to achieve this i would say that you need to half the metre rate coverage they say is achievable. you only have to look at the decent primer / surfacer spread rates which are providing you with an estimated coverage of 65m2 to 75m2 for a 18 litre container costing 36 - 40. These finishes are mint, they will leave you with a perfect finish in one application, possibly good enough to leave as a finish coat. @ about half a mm thickness..that's a proper primer / surfacer.

TonyM
19-11-2010, 06:26 PM
So i'm thinking that you are some sort of salesman then?

TradeDecoratingSupplies
19-11-2010, 11:20 PM
The problem with judging it based on prices is this. lets just say it sounds cheap, therefore you are encouraged to use it. and lets say the manufacturer tells you that it does 10m2 per litre, so you naturally assume its costing you the pittance of 10 pence pm2 in material costs. however its really costing you more than that in the long run. firstly to get that sort of coverage you are putting it on like water, so the results are bad, you may end up having to put another coat over the top so its costing you in time and labour and materials. I would always look at putting a really good high solid coating on, that can cover in one coat, to achieve this i would say that you need to half the metre rate coverage they say is achievable. you only have to look at the decent primer / surfacer spread rates which are providing you with an estimated coverage of 65m2 to 75m2 for a 18 litre container costing 36 - 40. These finishes are mint, they will leave you with a perfect finish in one application, possibly good enough to leave as a finish coat. @ about half a mm thickness..that's a proper primer / surfacer.

well that aint rocket science really if brands a b c claim to have 46% VS how can brand a cover 15m2 brand b 12m2 and brand c 9m2 per litre if they all advise the same wet film thickness "up to" the manufacturers biggest get out clause. HS coatings are good for dry wall not for plaster you defeat the object, you need microporous, may give you a great finisg coat initially but wil only cause problems for the poor bastards that do the redec.

We were'nt judging the choice of products on price, but value for money on well established quality products. 20 a tub and 40 a tub when tendering these days can mean losing the job, end user on a new build doesnt care as long as long as it looks good enough to sell the property, all new home owners will always redec within a year, then flake tests on problems become void.
High end work on privates I would lean towards the high end, bradite manufactured products or mythic but at at 48 for an american gallon thats not realistic for everyday use.
Also having worked for various paint manufacturers you do have your loss leaders on products like that cos you can count on your guys coming in to buy that and picking up sundries to claw your margin back. Times are gard, you have to look after your customers.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
19-11-2010, 11:21 PM
How far away do you live from burton, I'm getting dome people to test some new products before we decide to go with them, I could ups them over to you to try if you want?

RobPristine
20-11-2010, 02:31 PM
well sort of, My company is split into two parts, we have an application division which i run, which is predominantly spray painting, finishing etc, but we also have a specialist coatings distribution. so i am not trying to con anyone out of info. just share it and then maybe one day when we are 100% sure they are better than whats out there now,pass them on to the market place. so at the moment we are developing a similar system to USG Knuaf etc. but hopefully we are going to base it on quality aswell as price. what we do is come up with suggestions for coatings after using the ones on the market or listening to people like you. looking for the pitfalls and then saying to our chemist that this would be a good coating if only it could do this or that. Then we use them ourselves before passing them onto our existing customers to use, and then looking for applicators or distributors. we have done this very successfully with coatings to restore suspended ceilings, and coatings for interior cladding. we also have coatings that go onto old substrates in historical buildings, coatings that are applied directly over fire damage. We produce these coatings with all the qualities we require and also sell them on without ripping people off. so for example for new plaster we have a coating called Elite Aquasafe, its very micro porous but is also very high solid at 58% so it requires less coating to cover the wall. Our coating retails at 5.50 per litre whereas the nearest equivalent coating Classidur aquasil matt is about 8.50 per litre. Classidur also have a coating called Tradition, its for painting cold old masonry going over limewash and distemper, their coating is 200 for 12.5 litres, we have a coating called Elite heritage does the same job and more, but it costs 100 Then we looked at things like Dulux Dryfall for spraying out large ceiling voids, i think it retails at 6.00 per litre, We have Elite Ultra Dryfall which retails at 4.00. so what we are looking to do at the moment is produce a drywall Primer /surfacer for around 1.85 per Litre which doesnt have to be sprayed through a graco mark v, and can come in pastel colours for around 2.10 per litre, we are also working on a spray skim which can be sanded and then left as a primed skimmed substrate. But on the actual spraying side of things we spray ceilings, walls, block, cladding, shopfronts, fire-damage etc. so i can learn a lot from you about drywall but possibly help you out with regards to different substrates and eventually supplying innovative products. it could be that our products get specified for large drywall contracts and that we would do the spraying but i could then offer work out for the taping side of things would that be OK to do.

TradeDecoratingSupplies
20-11-2010, 04:23 PM
i am sure that most of them are pissed down emulsions. Problem is that people buy into the spreading rates. if you pick up a tin of emulsion it will have a theoretical coverage of between 10 & 12m2 per litre the emulsion may be cheap so people think yipee. however the truth is that someone has painted a wall as thin as possible on a non absorbent substrate to get those spreading rates. Also sometimes the coatings look thick as hell when you open the tin so again you think great stuff, however they are like glue, its the binder that makes them appear thick, they still have crap coverage and low solid content.

anyone that knows what they are doing though would consider substrate, temperature for spreading rates and aggitate products/or not and thin accordingly if needed <<cripes>>
thats like me spraying brosteel at 5 degrees without a filter through a 1150 not constantly agitating the product and wondering why its levels like porridge or blocks.

RobPristine
21-11-2010, 12:11 PM
you cant argue with maths and science. You mentioned that a contractor has issues with price and therefore could loose a job due to the price of a high solid coating; however that’s precisely why they should be looking at quality coatings. The main problem is that people don't really look at the solid content they look at the litre price, its a false economy. be honest how many painters, come in your shop and ask you what the solid content of a coating is...none..and why would they they just want you to sell them the right product for the job..and you cant exactly have a spread sheet about volume solids on every tin.

However as a rule of thumb this is how it works.
40% solids paint will coat twice the surface area as will a 20% solids paint. Generally, 40%-solids paints are, approximately, one-third higher in price, per litre, than their 20%-solids counterparts. However, they coat twice the surface. Therefore, on an applied cost/basis, the high-solids coating offers an overall cost savings of, approximately, one-third on the material cost…
Then you have the labour aspect. If you employ a team and they can complete the work in one less application your savings will be huge
Conclusion: if a contractor is pricing a job and decides to use a high solid coating, he is more likely to win the contract as his materials and labour will be far less than someone using contract emulsion or a low solid so called specialist primer Drylining paint…its basic maths. Plus the standard of work will be far superior.

amestaper
23-01-2011, 04:10 PM
Evaluating Less Toxic Paints and Coatings? Get the Most for Your Money By Calculating True Costs article.

http://www.pprc.org/pubs/factsheets/coatcost.html

Choosing Drywall Primer article

http://www.onlinetips.org/drywall-primer

scottishlad2k10
03-02-2011, 10:41 AM
i dont get this as ima painter and never use "drywall primer" because technically "the first coat of paint emulsion etc you apply" it is the primer or base coat :L

RobPristine
03-02-2011, 11:03 AM
i dont get this as ima painter and never use "drywall primer" because technically "the first coat of paint emulsion etc you apply" it is the primer or base coat :L

well, i think if you tried a primer surfacer you would definitly notice a difference, if you first coat with emulsion, it soaks in, some of the second soaks in and some of the third, emulsion isn't designed to provide an equalized surface. A decent primer surfacer actually contains something similar to a plaster skim its very high solid, consequently it provides a total uniform surface to paint on similar to a plastered wall, also if you have the surfacer tinted to the same colour as the finish coat, then you only need a thin coat of the finish to complete the job. The primer surfacer has done all the building up of the substrate for you, you don't need to put lashings of paint on. I am not talking about things like johnstones or leyland, i am talking about products such as Tuff-hide or Pro-Wall. basically a taped wall painted with emulsion looks like it has no substance, a taped wall surfaced with a primer surfacer and then painted looks like a perfect plaster wall, also it is harder, tougher, there are less chance of snags as even in critical light you cant see the differential between the joint compound and the board, all in all its a better finish, less labour intensive and more cost effective.

scottishlad2k10
03-02-2011, 11:09 AM
well, i think if you tried a primer surfacer you would definitly notice a difference, if you first coat with emulsion, it soaks in, some of the second soaks in and some of the third, emulsion isn't designed to provide an equalized surface. A decent primer surfacer actually contains something similar to a plaster skim its very high solid, consequently it provides a total uniform surface to paint on similar to a plastered wall, also if you have the surfacer tinted to the same colour as the finish coat, then you only need a thin coat of the finish to complete the job. The primer surfacer has done all the building up of the substrate for you, you don't need to put lashings of paint on. I am not talking about things like johnstones or leyland, i am talking about products such as Tuff-hide or Pro-Wall. basically a taped wall painted with emulsion looks like it has no substance, a taped wall surfaced with a primer surfacer and then painted looks like a perfect plaster wall, also it is harder, tougher, there are less chance of snags as even in critical light you cant see the differential between the joint compound and the board, all in all its a better finish, less labour intensive and more cost effective.



ive never had problems having to build it up........ matchmaker in white if its going to be a light colour...... and matchmaker magnolia if its going to be a dark colour........supercover matchmaker is high pigment....... none of the crappy value paints wicks/b&q/crown/johnstones...etc we only use good paints.......... match maker on ceilings and walls as base coats because it covers well more aless pure white in one coat and thats not applying it heavily.... its also cheap...... if its a softsheen to be finished or an emulsion colour its always dulux as its one of the best paints......

from what you said about emulsion soaking in and the primer dosnt....... thats because the primer is like pva........ its just sealing plus blocking the surface from soaking up the paint...... which means itl take longer to dry. which means its not all that good for the paint to adhere too.

" surfacer tinted to the same colour as the finish coat"then you only need a thin coat of the finish. < that sounds cowboy... skipping coats.......youd probably still need more than one coat to finish it ;) especially snagging so its not saving anything.1 finish coat of paint...... nonsence....... if theres a small gouge then it needs filled and touched up then whole area coated again to acheieve an even coat.

"basically a taped wall painted with emulsion looks like it has no substance" "a taped wall surfaced with a primer surfacer and then painted looks like a perfect plaster wall"
a painted wall concisting of a minimum of 2 coats which has substance and body......

have you worked on a building site? are you a painter? are you a sales person?

what you are saying sounds more like a primer for plasterd walls and ceilings............

personally i think il stick to the matchmaker supercover ;)

RobPristine
03-02-2011, 11:46 AM
LOL, no not PVA and i said similar to plaster resins, look i aint trying to sell you something here, you said you didnt understand the benefits of primer surfacers and i have tried to explain it, we also spray ourselves and have teams spraying all over the UK so i am not just trying to plug a product to sell, i know what works for me, if you are happy putting three coats on then that's great you carry on doing that. An architect would prefer a plaster skim finish if he could afford one on all his projects, thats a fact, that's why spray skim finishes are becoming more popular, there are different levels of finish, I believe a painted finish is a level 4 and a skim finish is a level 5 so it depends what spec you are working to. and as for comparing a product with 20% solids to a product with 50 or 60% solids then there is just no point, you would have to put three coats of matchmaker on to achieve the same dry film thickness as one coat of primer surfacer can achieve. its horses for courses , we are working on commercial sites and want to get in and out without waiting around for coats to dry, we haven't got time for snagging issues so if 2 of my lads can walk into a 1000m warehouse and knock it out to a finish in two shifts without any worries about tape lines showing and without using shed loads of paint then i am happy with that.

RobPristine
03-02-2011, 01:33 PM
LOL i think you are getting a surfacer mixed up with a sealer there is no comparison, there is no pva in a surfacer... have i worked on sites?, yes i have been a spraying contractor for over 20 years and our company spray in excess of 300'000m2 per year of various substrates on average, we also spray in France Spain & Holland, I myself run the spraying works in the UK, the tinted surfacer provides a solid finish equal to at least two coats of your matchmaker emulsion, so when it has been top-coated it will give the client more product for his money. you say it isn't possible to offer a one coat finish. well your correct if you are using cheap emulsion, however if you are using specialist coatings you would be surprised what you can do. As i said you asked a question about the benefits of primer surfacers and high solid coatings and i tried to provide you with an answer, then you try to question my experience, charming!, look you can either be the type of painter that is indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing all the stuff you are told by the mass provider or you can try to save money, increase profits and achieve higher standards by trying high end products.

The pictures show recently worked on projects of ours which were all single application finishes, it can be done, fast and efficiently if you use the correct coatings. maybe the same cant be said in the domestic market but certainly on the commercial side of things


385386387388389,

scottishlad2k10
04-02-2011, 05:07 PM
okay well i do get what your on about,but the products just seem to be for more of the "industrial painting" and "commercial buildings". rather than for "houses". dont think ive ever heard or seen of anyone here spraying a house either,its still all old fashioned but slowly catching up i guess.so with your experiance are these products appliable by brush and roller or more for the spraying?

so the primers obviously a bit or a "primer/undercoat" where as theres alot more body to the product than there is say for example " gloss " where the gloss is just a tinted varnish?

scottishlad2k10
21-02-2011, 11:04 PM
hey i'm nice really <<grrrrr>> ;)


how about a discount then since your really nice? Haha :p

the_tapeinator
22-02-2011, 02:10 PM
she is banned

amestaper
22-02-2011, 03:43 PM
how about a discount then since your really nice? Haha :p


she is banned

Yup, shes gone. You will need to look her up elsewhere, sorry.

scottishlad2k10
22-02-2011, 05:47 PM
Yup, shes gone. You will need to look her up elsewhere, sorry.


wasnt when i left it haha =]