Work advice please

[dnbdan]

Hi guys,

been taping since July. So am pretty new and fresh. Learnt with a couple of other guys.
got took on by a company under the guise of an 'apprentice' now we've been college and did some initial tests and exams. We have done eff all since. Now im not sure who's responsibility this is but I believe both college and employer have messed this up. We have been promised that we would be put on the books, get a fuel card and a van, have our materials paid for. But this all seems to be a far fetched idea. Couple of us can joint a house now with next to no problems and have been put in plots with no supervision and gone back and sanded and snagged (if needed) whenever been asked.
There has been talk of saying we're ready and we will be going off 'soon' but no date has been set. No salary has been discussed, no timeframe of when and nothing has been said about college except we are 0% through and have only a few months till we should have completed it...
Now this might sound like Im moaning etc.. But I am 27 on a beyond poor weekly apprentice wage doing a job of fully qualified taper and sometimes expected to do in the same time as an experienced sub contractor. I have started to have enough and I want to know if I have any other options out there?
Could I possibly cut my losses and try going subby for other firms? If so how much should I have in the bank to start off with? Or are there firms that will take you on the books these days?
I was under the impression I can get a NVQ assessment on site at a later date if I wanted but would cost like £600?
I just want to explore my options because at the moment I feel like I'm getting taken for a ride and banging my head against the wall.
Thanks guys

[TonyM]

Sounds like you're being fcuked over. Where are you based?

[dnbdan]

Sounds like you're being fcuked over. Where are you based?

Devon mate. I'm not sure if its a case of being intentionally fcuked over or if the company is so disorganised that we're getting nowhere fast. I guess I'm trying to sandbag a couple of other options if things don't get swiftly resolved

[Dillon]

So basically you have been shown how to do it as an apprentice and now they are getting you to Joint plots unsupervised for the same money. So your employers are trying to recoup their outlay before you move on to make your fortune.

If you are confident that you can do the job then start making some calls to other contractors and go sub contract. As for cost just about everything is supply and fix so you will need enough to do a couple of plots, as a rough guide I would say £120-150 per plot then there's your transport and tools. Its not that hard to do you just need to make the decision to do it.
Having said that All the time you are jointing no matter what the arrangement you are learning and trust me if you only started last July then you still have lots to learn. Reading between your lines you seem to be worried about going self employed as a subbie, unfortunately its just about the only way its done in the house bashing game, you could try the agencys they pay £12-15 per hour but its shite work usually patching.

[dnbdan]

So basically you have been shown how to do it as an apprentice and now they are getting you to Joint plots unsupervised for the same money. So your employers are trying to recoup their outlay before you move on to make your fortune.

If you are confident that you can do the job then start making some calls to other contractors and go sub contract. As for cost just about everything is supply and fix so you will need enough to do a couple of plots, as a rough guide I would say £120-150 per plot then there's your transport and tools. Its not that hard to do you just need to make the decision to do it.
Having said that All the time you are jointing no matter what the arrangement you are learning and trust me if you only started last July then you still have lots to learn. Reading between your lines you seem to be worried about going self employed as a subbie, unfortunately its just about the only way its done in the house bashing game, you could try the agencys they pay £12-15 per hour but its shite work usually patching.

yea I agree Subbie is the way to go. I also agree that myself and the lad I've learnt alongside have got a long way to go before we are as fast and well rounded/skilled as some of you experienced tapers. We know the basics and know enough to get started and can do most houses/plots.
I guess it's just getting to the point now where we're not prepared to be doing the work we are for the 'training wage' we are receiving. So either the original promise of 'getting van, fuel card and materials paid for along with a salary comes into fruition or we make our peace and go our own way.

[thomas.savage]

yea I agree Subbie is the way to go. I also agree that myself and the lad I've learnt alongside have got a long way to go before we are as fast and well rounded/skilled as some of you experienced tapers. We know the basics and know enough to get started and can do most houses/plots.
I guess it's just getting to the point now where we're not prepared to be doing the work we are for the 'training wage' we are receiving. So either the original promise of 'getting van, fuel card and materials paid for along with a salary comes into fruition or we make our peace and go our own way.

maybe its just me but what happened to being happy to have been shown a good way of earning a living and paying your dues respectively?!

why dont you carry on, get better.. like a lot better! make the mistakes without the danger of it coming back to haunt you. then after a year or two you should of met plenty of folks on site, managers and contractors and if your any good they will be offering you work. then its just a natural step but pay you dues first.

the most important thing is to be practising every day, so as long as your doing that be happy, you have plenty of time to go out on your own.

i was doing four beds on my own easy in a day for £80, it did me no harm. as for taking it up the arse, if you think that will stop when you sub you have another thing coming! build some character, get better and quicker then the path will show itself.

who you working for?

if it gets really bad you can come work with me lol though by the sounds of it you most likely will be phoning your mum to get a lift home half way though the day.

[dnbdan]

maybe its just me but what happened to being happy to have been shown a good way of earning a living and paying your dues respectively?!

why dont you carry on, get better.. like a lot better! make the mistakes without the danger of it coming back to haunt you. then after a year or two you should of met plenty of folks on site, managers and contractors and if your any good they will be offering you work. then its just a natural step but pay you dues first.

the most important thing is to be practising every day, so as long as your doing that be happy, you have plenty of time to go out on your own.

i was doing four beds on my own easy in a day for £80, it did me no harm. as for taking it up the arse, if you think that will stop when you sub you have another thing coming! build some character, get better and quicker then the path will show itself.

who you working for?

if it gets really bad you can come work with me lol though by the sounds of it you most likely will be phoning your mum to get a lift home half way though the day.

theres a difference between paying your dues and working your tits off 5 days a week for £130.
Theres also a difference between being a 16 year old with no bills or worries to a 27 year old with a mrs, rent and bills to pay. I don't think phoning my mum for a lift would happen, but possibly having it out with you might. Cheers for the offer tho pal

[TonyM]

Don't try and run before you can walk, but also, don't let them take the piss out of you.

[thomas.savage]

theres a difference between paying your dues and working your tits off 5 days a week for £130.
Theres also a difference between being a 16 year old with no bills or worries to a 27 year old with a mrs, rent and bills to pay. I don't think phoning my mum for a lift would happen, but possibly having it out with you might. Cheers for the offer tho pal

well, i have had a few not much younger than you phoning their mums lol you singed up to the scheme, to learn and work?. you definitely need to at least make sure you get the badges.

sorry but don't think much of guys who signed up to a scheme then want to quite early to make a fast buck. without knowing who your working for its hard to judge them, if its a big firm then they are probably doing things the right way. there will be a whole other perspective on your situation, the employers.

if you ever end up anywhere near me, you would best advised to watch me work rather than getting your knickers in a twist.

your sense of immediacy and entitlement is all to familiar to me.

though i do think 130 a week is crap, but its a scheme you signed up too! it is for younger folk, like you point out. how have you found your self on this at your age? obviously at the time you had no better options, now that was only a few months ago so suddenly its all not enough lol

my honest advice to you would be, if you have the relevant cards that is.. go work for a sub contractor... like me but not me. they will pay you more! and you would learn a lot better at least in the medium term. i would expect you to do this for five minutes, then leave them at the first chance you get but as its not me i don't care.

if you want some numbers PM me you phone number and i will help you out... thats if you can straiten your knickers. hell you can even take a day off and come and spend a few hours with me, though i am fat these days the method and skill remains.

and no you dont have to pay me!

[dnbdan]

well, i have had a few not much younger than you phoning their mums lol you singed up to the scheme, to learn and work?. you definitely need to at least make sure you get the badges.

sorry but don't think much of guys who signed up to a scheme then want to quite early to make a fast buck. without knowing who your working for its hard to judge them, if its a big firm then they are probably doing things the right way. there will be a whole other perspective on your situation, the employers.

if you ever end up anywhere near me, you would best advised to watch me work rather than getting your knickers in a twist.

your sense of immediacy and entitlement is all to familiar to me.

though i do think 130 a week is crap, but its a scheme you signed up too! it is for younger folk, like you point out. how have you found your self on this at your age? obviously at the time you had no better options, now that was only a few months ago so suddenly its all not enough lol

my honest advice to you would be, if you have the relevant cards that is.. go work for a sub contractor... like me but not me. they will pay you more! and you would learn a lot better at least in the medium term. i would expect you to do this for five minutes, then leave them at the first chance you get but as its not me i don't care.

if you want some numbers PM me you phone number and i will help you out... thats if you can straiten your knickers. hell you can even take a day off and come and spend a few hours with me, though i am fat these days the method and skill remains.

and no you dont have to pay me!

i do see where your coming from mate. Thanks for the advice
oh and I got made redundant from a cosy 24 grand a year office job, wanted to get a trade, something more hands on. Office life is soul destroying - lots of eye candy tho

[thomas.savage]

spreading shit on the wall can earn you a ok living though the best times for that are long gone. really if you have half a brain i would try and do something more civilised but if thats not a option the best money on site at the moment is in rendering or the chippys putting up the timber frames for persimmon and charles church. you will have to serve a proper apprenticeship with that though.

honestly, if you want to tape or just cant seem to get into anything else you should try and work with someone who at least knows how to do units in a day. some one you can really learn from. the last guy who did that with me is in australia now earning a shit load. he thought i was taking the piss paying him £80 a day, but when he went on his own and had some years under his belt he realised how lucky he was. he was already 2 or 3 years into the job when he came along with me for a bit.

if you want to tape best leave your self respect at the door for a few years and get down and dirty.

if i were you, i would be happy to work for next to nothing for six months with a guy who knows. you have the rest of your working life to reap the rewards. the key is the working together not being sent off on your own, that's a bit of a piss take to be fair to you. bad habits and a deep ingrained lack of efficiency will take hold that will cost you a fortune over your working life.

good luck, i am only up the road. volunteer for a day, it will be enlightening for you.

[Dillon]

Still looking for cheap labour eh Tom

dnbdan It might sound hard but what Tom says is true and TBH I think if you were to go and spend a day with him or me you would realize the difference between you and a professional taper and why there is such a difference in pay packets. Remember you take no risk you provide no materials no transport and above all that the work is found for you. If you want more then you must give more because there really is No free lunch.

I know you and I know who you work for and yes it must feel like a piss take, I think what it comes down to is what they have promised you, If its an apprenticeship for £130 a week and your still an apprentice then that's Ok. But if they have told you your qualified and they will put you on their books with a van and materials supplied which I know they do do then that's what they should do.

Its an all to familiar story where a tradesman takes on a guy to train up which actually cost the guy money then as soon as the trainee thinks he knows it all he up and fcuks off to make his fortune usually by setting up in direct competition with the Tradesman that was good enough to teach him. You cant blame your employer for wanting a return for their investment, having said that knowing who your working for I would bet its a government scheme and not costing them that much.

TBH why would Tom or me take you on for a day an show you how its really done (because its definitely different to how you have been taught) only to have you compete against us. Its a mad world.

You have my number give me a call if you want to chat.

[thomas.savage]

hay you cheeky bastard, i have never earned a penny from anyone else's hand but my own!

i don't fear competition, the only guy i know that can compete with me is.... me. i am fat and can't be fcuked being a machine these days but happy to pass on the know how. give some other bugger a chance to beat my solo records

i need a kick up the ares, so lazy its shameful. i need some enthusiastic young charge to come try and impress me, might get the juices flowing again.

i wish someone like me offered me that chance when i was young in the job.

oh how i used too love it... don't know what happened.

[Dillon]

hay you cheeky bastard, i have never earned a penny from anyone else's hand but my own!

i don't fear competition, the only guy i know that can compete with me is.... me. i am fat and can't be fcuked being a machine these days but happy to pass on the know how. give some other bugger a chance to beat my solo records

i need a kick up the ares, so lazy its shameful. i need some enthusiastic young charge to come try and impress me, might get the juices flowing again.

i wish someone like me offered me that chance when i was young in the job.

oh how i used too love it... don't know what happened.

Pah!!! that's nothing Im OLD and FAT.

I think I did say spending a day with a real Taper would be an eye opener.

[thomas.savage]

Pah!!! that's nothing Im OLD and FAT.

I think I did say spending a day with a real Taper would be an eye opener.

is he working for poisoned dwarf?

he would probably shit his pants if he came with me, though maybe not as i am not the force of yesteryear.... still shit pants i recon, better off with you dillon

fancy wet nursing him?

[dnbdan]

is he working for poisoned dwarf?

he would probably shit his pants if he came with me, though maybe not as i am not the force of yesteryear.... still shit pants i recon, better off with you dillon

fancy wet nursing him?

Never shit my pants at anything in my life mate. Apart from spiders

yea cheers Dillon, I do see your points of view. Just frustrating as its like one step forwards then 3 steps back at the minute. Should of become a painter instead (still might) ffs.
I'd be more interested if I did get chucked about with a few different tapers and saw different ways of doing things and got to use box's and the rest. I'll suck it up and crack on for the minute, but somethings going to have to change soon.

[rabbyc]

If you can tape a house to a decent standard and in a reasonable time my advice would be to look for another job, either on a hourly or m/2 rate, on a labour only basis, most companies will excpect you to be self employed.........only becuase it saves them money............but you should be paid weekly, after a weeks lying time.....once you gain experience, money and contacts, you can makes approaches to work direct and supply material, though usually you have to wait far longer for your cash..........speed will come with experience, quality will come from working beside and learning from more experienced tapers, as well as having to put right your mistakes.........though i've never heard of a fully qualified taper......it's certainly not a trade, though it does require technique.......it was originally a weeks course in carlisle, with some follow up.......so £130 for a weeks work......after over 6 months and taping houses on your own......i would feel agrieved too!!

[Dillon]

is he working for poisoned dwarf?

he would probably shit his pants if he came with me, though maybe not as i am not the force of yesteryear.... still shit pants i recon, better off with you dillon

fancy wet nursing him?

Tom I have met dnbdan and I can assure you that any pant shitting would be done by you he certainly is not your average spotty faced apprentice poisoned dwarf lol yes.

rabbyc........."though I've never heard of a fully qualified taper" well you have now I have ALL my qualifications NVQ City and Guilds in Taping and Fixing. BUT NO ONE ever asks to see them.

dnbdan just to give you something to aim at, If you cant do your normal 3bed house in 3days +1/2day to sand with no snagging call back then you will not make as much as you think. Remember this IF you do get called back to snag then unless your still on the same site it can write off another days money which makes a 3day house a 4day house and you earn 25% less. Most Tapers inc me will quote the day they earned a £1000 but non of them will tell you about all the days they worked for fcuk all and paid out to do it..

And finally take no notice of Tom he likes to wind you up but his advice is spot on.

[dnbdan]

Tom I have met dnbdan and I can assure you that any pant shitting would be done by you he certainly is not your average spotty faced apprentice poisoned dwarf lol yes.

rabbyc........."though I've never heard of a fully qualified taper" well you have now I have ALL my qualifications NVQ City and Guilds in Taping and Fixing. BUT NO ONE ever asks to see them.

dnbdan just to give you something to aim at, If you cant do your normal 3bed house in 3days +1/2day to sand with no snagging call back then you will not make as much as you think. Remember this IF you do get called back to snag then unless your still on the same site it can write off another days money which makes a 3day house a 4day house and you earn 25% less. Most Tapers inc me will quote the day they earned a £1000 but non of them will tell you about all the days they worked for fuck all and paid out to do it..

And finally take no notice of Tom he likes to wind you up but his advice is spot on.

Haha.

Yea I understand that Dillon. In an unexpected, strange turn of events, got told this morning that I'll be going off within the next 4 weeks with another lad I learnt with. They are apparently sorting us out a van at the minute, then should get a fuel card and access to materials with that. Guessing we will be put on a low day rate but I guess it's worth doing that for the minute to get some more experience etc.. Also haven't got enough funds in the bank to start myself up subbying at mo. I won't hold my breath tho, they've been making similar noises for a little while now.

[Dillon]

Back in the day a lot of their guys worked like that, for them its a win win situation, they basically hire you a vehicle and sell you the fuel and all the materials, Trouble is you can buy fuel and materials cheaper else where. It was Ok back then when we were all earning good money but things are a little tighter now. Having said that its a good way for you to go to get started and gain more experience. Alls well that ends well Good Luck.